From: "james leturgey" <julietlima7@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: COZY: Plating
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 06:36:43 PST

Nick:
I attended a school years ago in Norfolk to learn how to plate metal. I 
don't remember the exact name but the it seems to me it was LDC Corp. 
It's might be convenient for you if you have to go the anyway for you 
tour of duty. I'll see if I can dig up the old info for you.
They sell this system to the navy for on board use so it's a small 
one-at-a-time setup.

Jim

>From: "Ugolini, Nick J" <UgoliniNJ@efdsouth.navfac.navy.mil>
>Reply-To: "Ugolini, Nick J" <UgoliniNJ@efdsouth.navfac.navy.mil>
>To: "Cozy Group (E-mail)" <cozy_builders@canard.com>
>Subject: COZY: Plating
>Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:57:57 -0500
>
>A question for the group:
>
>Does anyone know a supplier where I can get some 4130 steel tubes 
plated
>(for rust protection)?  I would prefer nickel, copper, or chrome.
>
>Thanks
>
>Nick
>

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From: "Nat Puffer" <cozy@extremezone.com>
Subject: Re: COZY: Plating
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:44:05 -0600

Builders,
Please be aware that there are special specifications for coating aircraft
parts to avoid embrittlement. Most plating companies probably are not aware
of these. 
Nat


----------
> From: bil kleb <w.l.kleb@larc.nasa.gov>
> To: cozy_builders mailing list <cozy_builders@canard.com>
> Subject: Re: COZY: Plating
> Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 8:25 AM
> 
> "Ugolini, Nick J" wrote:
> > 
> > Does anyone know a supplier where I can get some 4130 steel tubes
plated
> > (for rust protection)?  I would prefer nickel, copper, or chrome.
> 
> if you already have the parts in hand, just find a local plating company
> in the yellow pages. warning, they typically have a $50 setup charge or
so.
> 
> -- 
> bil <mailto:w.l.kleb@larc.nasa.gov>

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:01:43 -0500
From: bil kleb <w.l.kleb@larc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: COZY: Plating

Nat Puffer wrote:
> 
> Please be aware that there are special specifications for coating aircraft
> parts to avoid embrittlement. Most plating companies probably are not aware
> of these.

thank you nat, i forgot to mention that concern.  all plating companies
that i spoke with in my local area were well aware of the mil specs, in
fact they all plate to those specifications regardless of your needs.
but it is definitely something that should be asked upfront.

-- 
bil <mailto:w.l.kleb@larc.nasa.gov>

From: Todd Carrico <todd.carrico@aris.com>
Subject: RE: COZY: Plating
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:21:27 -0800

Thought I would add my .02 here too.

I believe in order to chrome plate, most companies copper plate first to
remove surface irregularities, and then Chrome.  This is for the Show
quality stuff. 

I don't know if Copper is a good way to go.  I have seen some internal
engine components with Copper flash (Cam shafts), but this is mostly for
heat treat masking.  Touch it and it starts tarnishing before your eyes.
 
Nickel is probably just expensive, but I would not know.

Hydrogen embrittlement is taken care of with post heat/bake, at some temp,
for a certain time etc.  Any good plating shop should know how to handle it,
but do make sure you mention it.  I believe there is some document you can
request that shows they have done it.

A very good alternative is Powder Coating.  Very hard finish, color full
too.  Not near as caustic and messy as plating.  Probably friendlier to the
environment.

It is hard to find a good plater anymore.  The EPA has really cracked down
on them, and the few that are left, put it to ya so to speak.  I am going
the Powder Coat route when I get there.  They shouldn't be too hard to find.
(A quick search at Yahoo showed 178 hits).

good luck!

Todd Carrico


... avoid embrittlement. ...
Nat


...
> if you already have the parts in hand, just find a local plating company
> in the yellow pages. warning, they typically have a $50 setup charge or
so.
bill kleb
...

From: Jim Hocut <jhocut@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: COZY: Plating
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:48:16 -0500


 >
 > Does anyone know a supplier where I can get some 4130 steel tubes
 > plated
 > (for rust protection)?  I would prefer nickel, copper, or chrome.

If you're looking for rust protection the #1 choice would be Cad 
plating followed by chromate,  #2 would be zinc plating (again w/ 
chromate).  Either should outlast "chrome" plating (which is actually 
just a flash of chrome over bright nickel and usually also copper). 
 And, as has been pointed out already, be sure to specify stress 
relieving to get rid of hydrogen embrittlement.

Jim Hocut
jhocut@mindspring.com



Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:03:54 +1100
From: James Russell <fshort@flash.net>
Subject: RE: COZY: Plating

>Thought I would add my .02 here too.
>
>I believe in order to chrome plate, most companies copper plate first to
>remove surface irregularities, and then Chrome.  This is for the Show
>quality stuff.
>
>I don't know if Copper is a good way to go.  I have seen some internal
>engine components with Copper flash (Cam shafts), but this is mostly for
>heat treat masking.  Touch it and it starts tarnishing before your eyes.
>
>Nickel is probably just expensive, but I would not know.
>
>
>
>... avoid embrittlement. ...
>Nat
>
>
>...
>> if you already have the parts in hand, just find a local plating company
>> in the yellow pages. warning, they typically have a $50 setup charge or
>so.
>bill kleb
>...

Hi all:

	We plated all of our ferrous racing car bits with electroless
nickel plate - a semi-gloss finish, tough and chip-free, and it lasted much
longer
than chrome. You must post-plate bake to avoid hydrogen embrittlement tho...
	I don't remember prices - I think it was cheaper than chrome ( due to
 no surface prep or copper base plating? ) - but it has been awhile.

Regards,

James



From: "Russ Fisher" <rfisher@spacetech.com>
Subject: COZY: Aluminum Prep
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:57:56 -0400

Hi Folks,

Went to my local auto parts store which also carries paint products and
asked if they had Alumiprep and Alodine.  He came back with two PPG
products:

DX 533 Aluminum Cleaner
Ingr: Phosphoric Acid, Ammonium Hydrogen Fluoride, 2-Butoxyethanol.

DX 501 Aluminum Conditioner
Ingr: Water, Chromic Acid, Fluoroboric Acid, Ammonium Bifluoride, Ammonium
Fluoride
Mfgr claims it is used to prepare AL for coating or painting.

Are these the same as Alumiprep and Alodine 1201?  The containers look the
same and the cost was virtually identical to Wicks less the hazardous
shipping costs.  Any ideas?

Thanks

Russ Fisher

From: Jim Hocut <JHocut@pxauto.com>
Subject: RE: COZY: Aluminum Prep
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 07:07:30 -0400 


> DX 533 Aluminum Cleaner
> Ingr: Phosphoric Acid, Ammonium Hydrogen Fluoride, 2-Butoxyethanol.
> 
> DX 501 Aluminum Conditioner
> Ingr: Water, Chromic Acid, Fluoroboric Acid, Ammonium Bifluoride,
> Ammonium
> Fluoride
> 
> 
> Are these the same as Alumiprep and Alodine 1201?  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
Can't say if these are the "same" or not, but they've got the essential
ingredients to etch aluminum and then to chromate it.  They ought to
work, I'd buy the smallest containers available and try doing a small
scrap of aluminum.  Also, please be very careful with these products,
wear safety glasses and protective gloves when using them - they're
quite nasty.

Jim Hocut
Cozy IV #448

From: "Ron Larock" <rlarock@mediaone.net>
Subject: COZY: etch
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:35:00 -0400

to etch aluminum and then to chromate it.  They ought to
work, I'd buy the smallest containers available and try doing a small
scrap of aluminum.  Also, please be very careful with these products,
wear safety glasses and protective gloves when using them - they're
quite nasty.

I stripped a Cessna and etched the aluminum and the stuff is nasty. Besides
gloves and glasses, you should wear a mask. I was working in an area that
didn't have very good ventilation and I wound up having a bad chest cough
for two weeks.

After you etch the aluminum, put the gold on while the aluminum is still wet
from rinsing with water. If you let the part dry, then there will be a
little ( very little, but some) corrosion. Once the gold is on, you should
paint the part within 24 hours. If you don't paint the part, it will be ok,
just regold before you paint.

One thing you don't want to do is etch the part and not put the gold on. Its
better to not etch at all if you don't put the gold on.




From: "Russ Fisher" <rfisher@spacetech.com>
Subject: Re: COZY: Aluminum Prep
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:42:32 -0400


> >DX 533 Aluminum Cleaner
> >Ingr: Phosphoric Acid, Ammonium Hydrogen Fluoride, 2-Butoxyethanol.
> >
> >DX 501 Aluminum Conditioner
> >Ingr: Water, Chromic Acid, Fluoroboric Acid, Ammonium Bifluoride,
Ammonium
> >Fluoride
> >Mfgr claims it is used to prepare AL for coating or painting.
> >Russ Fisher
> 
> Hi Russ:
> 
> No, the two items are cleaners/brighteners/etches for auto/truck paint
> applications.
> The Alumiprep is an acid etch to clean the metal surface before alodine.
Be
> sure to clean
> and degrease the part w/ MEK or acetone before etching as any oil will
> repel the
> alodine... We have big tanks of each @ work and lightly scrub the part
> surface w/
> Scotch-Brite pads while in the etch... If water beads anywhere instead of
> sheeting
> off, it's not clean.  To avoid the HAZMAT shipping, go to any airport and
> ask around
> @ a maintenance shop where they get their etch and alodine locally.
> 
> Regards,
> James

James,

The Aluminum Cleaner DX533 bottle states the following:

DX533 is a non-flammable acid aluminum cleaner, brightener and conditioner.
 Do not use on high copper or silicon bearing alloys.  DX533 penetrates
deep into the pores of the aluminum and lifts or dissolves oxidation, soils
and other surface contaminants.  DX533 prepares AL for welding.  DX533
cleaning and conditioning chemical prepares the surface for chrome
conversion coating with Aluminum Conditioner DX501 or Aluminum Confitioner
DX503.

Sounds like it is an acid etch.  The DX501 has no description, only usage
warnings, but it is a gold color.  I was hoping someone could compare the
ingredients listed above to their bottles of Alumiprep and Alodine to see
if they were the same.  Thanks for your reply.

Russ Fisher

From: "Tom Jacobs" <tjacobs@madison.tds.net>
Subject: Re: COZY: Aluminum Prep
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:28:40 -0500

Russ,

It looks like slightly different composition:
Alodine 1201 contains "Ferricynide salts, acidic chromates and
fluorides".
Metalprep 79 contains "Phosphoric Acid and Glycon Ethers".
- --- --
Tom Jacobs  tjacobs@madison.tds.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Russ Fisher <rfisher@spacetech.com>
To: cozy_builders@canard.com <cozy_builders@canard.com>
...
>DX 533 Aluminum Cleaner
>Ingr: Phosphoric Acid, Ammonium Hydrogen Fluoride,
2-Butoxyethanol.
>
>DX 501 Aluminum Conditioner
>Ingr: Water, Chromic Acid, Fluoroboric Acid, Ammonium
Bifluoride, Ammonium
>Fluoride
>Mfgr claims it is used to prepare AL for coating or painting.
>
>Are these the same as Alumiprep and Alodine 1201?  The
containers look the
>same and the cost was virtually identical to Wicks less the
hazardous
>shipping costs.  Any ideas?
>
>Thanks
>
>Russ Fisher
>

