Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:03:22 -0500
From: David Domeier <david010@earthlink.net>
Subject: COZY: Ice and the Cozy

John,

    re " What happens if the air filter ices up? "

    The same question occurred to me when I was installing all that
stuff, and the answer to myself was it is a fairly large filter area and
most of it is not facing the air stream coming into the box.  I would
think the front of the filter would ice up first and then gradually
around the sides and finally the rear area.  At that point, obviously,
the engine would be an anchor.

    The reality of such a situation is that the airplane will be covered
with ice also, and with or without the engine, it won't fly for long.
These machines were not designed to be flown in freezing precip.  There
is no provision for ice on the airframe or in the engine intake.  Carb
heat might prevent ice but it won't remove it.

    So - the bottom line is, DO NOT fly a Cozy in freezing precip.

dd

PS
    I once overheard a Cherokee pilot report losing altitude over water
on V44 southeast of Long Island.  It was a rotten winter day with
freezing precip and a ceiling of about 300 feet.  ATC vectored the guy
toward land and as luck would have it, he broke out and there was a
deserted beach right in front of him where he landed.  Actually, I
thought he went into the sea because we were switched to another
frequency while all this was going on.  I read about the beach landing
in the paper the next morning.  He was one lucky hombre.

From: "Russ Fisher" <rfisher1@rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Re: COZY: Ice and the Cozy
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:08:48 -0400

>    re " What happens if the air filter ices up? "

Start looking for a place to land - in a hurry.

>    The same question occurred to me when I was installing all that
>stuff, and the answer to myself was it is a fairly large filter area and
>most of it is not facing the air stream coming into the box.  I would
>think the front of the filter would ice up first and then gradually
>around the sides and finally the rear area.  At that point, obviously,
>the engine would be an anchor.

As we all leaned in ground school, carb ice occurs when the temperature of
the air entering the carb drops suddenly as it's pressure is reduced due to
the venturi.  This can happen with no visible precip or moisture.  The
pressure/temperature drop does not occur in the filter box, so this should
not normally be a concern.  However, if you plan on flying in conditions
conducive to ice buildup on the air filter, you really should be flying
something other than a Cozy.

Russ Fisher


Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:29:10 -0400
From: bil kleb <kleb@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: COZY: Ice and the Cozy

Russ Fisher wrote:
>
> As we all leaned in ground school, carb ice occurs when the temperature
> of the air entering the carb drops suddenly as it's pressure is reduced
> due to the venturi.

ah, yes; but it is largely wrong.  the temp drop due to the venturi
effect is small compared to the temperature drop due to the fuel
changing
phase from liquid to vapor.  hence the reason that the ellison still
requires "carb" heat.

if you're webified see http://www.ez.org/carb_ice.htm for a handy chart
of probable icing conditions, and ellison's excellent summary at

  http://www.ellison-fluid-systems.com/faqs/carburetor_heat.htm

btw: i am trying to get one of the original carburetor icing reports
     online...
-- 
bil <http://www.geocities.com/~kleb/>

From: "Russ Fisher" <rfisher1@rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Re: COZY: Ice and the Cozy
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:45:36 -0400



Russ Fisher

Bil Kleb wrote:

>the temp drop due to the venturi
>effect is small compared to the temperature drop due to the fuel
>changing
>phase from liquid to vapor.  hence the reason that the ellison still
>requires "carb" heat.


No argument from me on this, however the temp drop still takes place in the
throttle body, NOT the filter box.

From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:46:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: COZY: Ice and the Cozy

<the bottom line is, DO NOT fly a Cozy in freezing >

More than just that!! Any visible (even fog or mist) and temps near freezing! 


From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:31:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: COZY: Ice on a Cosy

Some comments on airframe icing

1: try very hard to stay away from icing conditions
2: Icing can occur at anytime there is visible moisture and the temperature at or below freezing.
3: It might occur with a temperature inversion, that climbing may eliminate icing.
4: Understand that below a certain temperature icing is unlikely, might be around 15 F.
Have had 3 experiences with icing:
1: ILS approach tops at 5000, clear above, Awos reporting 1800 broken, 3000 overcast, temp 28F. airport elev. 780. Approach 
cleared us from 7000' to 3000'. I asked for cruise 3000', intending to stay just above clouds to last moment, then quick down 
through layer. Wasn't in clouds more than minute. On final added 5 knots to airspeed. Carrier landing, had moderate nose up 
attitude, but unable to get nose higher for flare. When pushing plane into hanger there was 1/8" thick ice on leading edges.

2: Departing Jackson, Wyoming, at 15,000' IFR was in middle of thin overcast layer for a half hour. Was able to continuously 
see blue sky up, and the ground below. Picked up light rime (looked like frost) on leading edges. With plenty of warm air 
below, decided to see what was going to happen. Cloud disappeared, frost sublimed off, and plane flew the same all the time.

3: IFR from Asheville, NC to Cleveland, Ohio. TOps forcast and were 5000' overcast, scattered snow showers all the way. 
Conditions to improve at destination at arrival time. Departing a snow shower was moving in the departure end of the runway. 
Asked for and got an immediate turn to stay in clear and climbed in clear to VFR on top. Flight to 50 miles from destination 
clear on top at 8000'. Saw hole in layer and ground below 2 miles off course, turned and went through little hole (still on 
IFR flight plan) to VFR under overcast. Closer to destination, ceiling got lower, got to minimum vectoring altitude, ceiling 
scraping canopy, and following edge of a heavy snow shower line on the ground, now away from airport, and 10 miles away the 
AWOS saying clear and visibility greater than 6 miles. While checking chart, ended in the snow, nose mounted landing lights 
visible maybe 10 or 20 feet ahead. Was in snow 3 minutes (205 mph). On landing had 1/4" wide x 1/8" thick ice on leading 
edges. Both approaches ended with 2.5 hours fuel at cruise speed remaining. Barring a mechanical emergency, More than enough 
to fly to clear conditions.

From: Epplin John A <EpplinJohnA@jdcorp.deere.com>
Subject: COZY: RE: [c-a] Ice and the Cozy
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:32:10 -0500


>     re " What happens if the air filter ices up? "
> 
> 
	I would like to thank the group for the discussion on this subject.
Some really good experience out there.  First thing is to avoid known icing
conditions, knew that but maybe it takes some words from the wise to make a
real believer.  I am not sure if I will do anything with the setup I have
now.   If anything I might drill a series of holes, 1/2 in or larger, around
in a circle in the filter cover and make a valve from stainless steel shim
stock something like a flower with a screw in the center and bend the petals
such that they close the holes until some differential pressure builds up to
open them.  Simple and very few pounds.  Only down side I can see is the
possibility of one breaking off and disturbing the airflow. 

	Another related question.  Is prop icing sort of cured with the
pusher configuration?  I never hear any mention of it.  Carl D. shared his
experiences with us and did not mention prop icing.  Just another dumb
question

	Thank again

	John Epplin  Mk4  #467

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:07:38 -0700
Subject: COZY: Re: [c-a] Ice and the Cozy
From: "Dan & Jill Patch" <dpatch1@san.rr.com>

John Wrote:  
> 
> Another related question.  Is prop icing sort of cured with the pusher
> configuration?  I never hear any mention of it.  Carl D. shared his
> experiences with us and did not mention prop icing.  Just another dumb
> question.
>
>         Thank again
>
>         John Epplin  Mk4  #467


John,

Prop icing is pretty much not a problem in pushers.  By the time significant
prop icing would occur, you have already hit the ground out of control from
an iced-up canard.

Seriously, I haven't heard of prop icing in any of the canards, but I think
that is because that very, very few canard operators are foolish enough fly
in conditions that would lend themselves to severe prop OR airframe icing.
A friend of mine was killed many years ago in a VariEze in what probably was
an icing situation (known freezing rain at the surface, tops @ 12,000 ft).
No info. on prop icing in this case, but the airframe disintegrated from
EXTREME overspeed (>300 kts.?) suggesting nearly complete loss of canard
lift (or 50 other possibilities???).  If the prop is properly "clocked"
(i.e., a soot free setting) exhaust gases will not impinge on the prop so
you couldn't expect any help there.  Anyone who has flown in rain can attest
to the fact that plenty of rain can and does hit the prop.  In summary, it
would take a mighty strong argument to convince me that pushers are
significantly more or less susceptible to icing than the "wrong end brand"
under similar conditions.  I sure wouldn't bet my life on it!

Regards,
Dan
VariEze N862DP

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:28:45 -0500
From: Michael Amick <mkamick@wans.net>
Subject: Re: COZY: Re: [c-a] Ice and the Cozy




> John Wrote:
> >
> > Another related question.  Is prop icing sort of cured with the pusher
> > configuration?  I never hear any mention of it.  Carl D. shared his
> > experiences with us and did not mention prop icing.  Just another dumb
> > question.
> >

I've had light airframe & prop ice in Cessna 182 172 & 152 ; most all on let
down.

Icing on most props occurs pretty close to the hub.  Note that "Hot Props"
electric pads are about 1/3 the blade length or less.  Centrifical force removes
the stuff farther out.

In these airplanes 1/3 of the blade rides in the heat bath of air exiting the
cowling.

Just my 2cents though, as I'm still building.

Michael Amick

From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:44:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: COZY: Re: [c-a] Ice and the Cozy

<did not mention prop icing>
Didn't notice any icing, but also didn't look specifically for it. Was concerned about icing of the airfilter which is 
directly in the airstream.

From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:31:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: COZY: RE: [c-a] Ice and the Cozy

<What happens if the air filter ices up? >

The engine dies! unless you have a proper alternate air source, then with the alternate air turned on, you continue flying, 
possibly at slightly reduced power, abiet carb heat drop. Carb heat is a form of alternate air. Serves dual purpose on 
carburated engines to eliminate carb venturi icing.

Just to be sure everone understands, there are atleast 5 type of icing discussed recently:
1: Airframe - destroyed airfoil on lifting surfaces and weight
2: Propeller - destroyed trust and possible balance issues when one  blade has more ice than the other.
3: Airfilter - Starve the engine of oxygen
4: Carb Ice - internal carbureter- lack of oxygen for engine 
5: Control Ice - Ice locks up and prevents movement of control surface - Elevator control tube at fuselage

Beach King Air, Piper Aztec, and others properly equipped can handle some ice. The Ez's are poor at handling ice. I have made 
many NO GO decisions due to low ceilings (1000' or more), clouds only 2000' or less thick, and clear above, with ground temps 
less than 40 F. The instances I noted recently are total icing experience in almost 6 years and 700+ hours flying. And those 3 
instances were after considerable discussions with weather briefer, checking weather in route, and reserving much gasoline. 
Probably as a result my own standards have been made more conservative.


