From: Don Bowen <DonBow@symix.com>
Subject: COZY: RE: SportAir Composite Construction Workshop
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:03:04 -0400 

Rick Maddy wrote:

I wanted to know if anyone has attended SportAir's Composite Construction
and Finishing Workshop.  Is it worth the time and money for this specific
class?  Should I just get Burt's book and the practice kit?

Just my 2 cents worth:

I read the composite instructions in the plans and purchased the Rutan video
on composite construction techniques.  This provided me with enough
knowledge for my Cozy Mk IV (working on chapter 14 now).  The parts in
chapter 4 (the first chapter in which you build anything) are not that
difficult to make, and not that expensive to start over if you mess one up.

I am not trying to give a negative opinion of the workshops.  I don't know
from personal experience, but they are probably pretty good.  I just wanted
you to know that you can do this type of composite construction from what is
covered in chapter 3 of the plans.  If you are not sure, make the practice
part and then evaluate your skills.

Good luck with your project,

Don Bowen
Cozy Mk IV s/n 440





From: "Rick Maddy" <cozy@maddyhome.com>
Subject: COZY: SportAir Composite Construction Workshop
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:29:09 -0600

I wanted to know if anyone has attended SportAir's Composite Construction
and Finishing Workshop.  Is it worth the time and money for this specific
class?  Should I just get Burt's book and the practice kit?

The class is in Mesa, AZ next month.  It's a 16 hour drive from Denver -
ouch.  Airfare's way too high ($342) - bigger ouch.  I would hate to do this
drive if the class wasn' worth it.  Of course a second agenda would be to
stop by Cozy Aircraft.  I would love a chance to see a real Cozy Mark IV
before I get started (maybe even get a ride too).

The plus side is that my wife wants to take the class with me - boy am I
lucky or what!

Rick Maddy  (cozy@maddyhome.com)
Cozy Mk IV #0824: Pre-build

From: "Denis Thomassin" <dthomassin@chca.ca>
Subject: COZY: SportAir Video on Composite
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:01:15 -0400

Deception !

I ordered last week and viewed yesterday night the video from sportair
Aviation about Basic Composite. I was expecting the video to be more
descriptive about technique to use instead the focus for over one hours on
the different kind of fiber, core, and resin avaible on the market and their
spcific property. Nothing about how to do composite part.

At one point you see one guy (you don`t see it but his hands) putting so
much expoxy on a piece of clothes that I started to wonder if I was doing
wrong. He was pouring the expoxy straight from the cup into the clothes like
if he was adding mapple sirup to grandma`s apple cake then he was scrubbing
with he squegges a lot of expoxy back to the pot.

I was also surprise to see them putting a first coat of expoxy on the wax
paper before adding the clothe. I normaly lay the clothe and apply expoxy
over it then stab/brush/squeeg until it is wet out.

They have some interesting comment about curing piece at high temperature.
Am'I ok to say that with the use of AeroEpoxy their no need to cure a piece
? I live in a very cold country I don`t worry too much about 110 degrees on
the ramp but I intend to finish my life in a warmer place :)

In resume don`t spend 40$ + shipping. You will find the same information in
chapter 3. In their publicity they that if you can``t attend the workshop
the video is a good substitut ..... i wonder about the workshop.


Au revoir !!!
Denis Thomassin Montreal, Canada builder 705



From: mister@neesnet.com
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:30:33 -0500
Subject: Re: COZY: SportAir Video on Composite 

     

        Denis Thomassin wrote about the Sportair Composite Video.
        
        I found that the Rutan video "Building The Rutan Composites" was an good 
        instructional piece showing the proper technique for doing layups.  The 
        tape was in the Wicks catalog as P/N 21-35830.
        
        Bob Misterka 
        Cozy III  N342RM
        http://www.gis.net/~bmist
        



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From: JHTanstaaf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:57:52 EDT
Subject: Re: COZY: SportAir Video on Composite

In a message dated 10/07/1999, 9:59:47 AM, dthomassin@chca.ca writes:
<<In resume don`t spend 40$ + shipping. You will find the same information in
chapter 3. In their publicity they that if you can``t attend the workshop
the video is a good substitut ..... i wonder about the workshop.>>

The workshop is far better than you describe the video. In fact, Jeff Russell 
of AeroCad (the AeroCanard) was the instructor at the N.H. one in August. I'm 
told he does many of the sessions. It's two days of good hands on experience 
cutting cores, laying cloth, & doing some vacumn bagging. The stuff on types 
of cloth, cores, etc. was held to a minimum --- more of what you might need 
to know to build but not as much as you'd need to know to design a plane from 
scratch.

Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 15:14:14 -0400
From: "L. Wayne Hicks" <lwhicks@erols.com>
Subject: Re: COZY: SportAir Video on Composite

Denis Thomassin wrote:
> 
> Deception !

He was pouring the expoxy straight from the cup into the clothes

-------> Yep.  Fastest way to wet out large areas is to pour straight
from the cup, then spread around with the squeegee.  Once the cloth is
saturated, you squeegee the excess and scrape it back into the up.  Burt
and Mike used to just scrape the epoxy onto the floor!  You can brush
the epoxy on, but it takes time and you run the risk of disturbing the
cloth if you brush too hard.


> 
> They have some interesting comment about curing piece at high temperature.

-------> Read the archives and ANY article from Gary Hunter on
post-curing.



> Am'I ok to say that with the use of AeroEpoxy their no need to cure a piece
> ? I live in a very cold country I don`t worry too much about 110 degrees on
> the ramp but I intend to finish my life in a warmer place :)

------> There is a famous incident whereby a builder completed his plane
in the northern United States, flew it to Arizona (?is that right?),
left it on the ramp all day, came back and found the wings drooping a
few inches.  (Someone please correct me if this is an urban legend...) 
Even if it is, post-curing can only help.

Wayne Hicks

Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 17:51:47 -0400
From: Jeff Russell <JRaero@gte.net>
Subject: Re: COZY: SportAir Video on Composite



Denis Thomassin wrote:
> 
> Deception !
> 
> I ordered last week and viewed yesterday night the video from sportair
> Aviation about Basic Composite. 

I have not seen the tape myself.  I sent Ron Alexander a copy of
your letter you sent to the Cozy group to see if he would respond.

By the way, I hardly use a brush unless I have too.  I pour from a 
cup most of the time and can wet out much quicker this way and remove 
the excess resin in less time. I put the excess back in the cup for the 
next piece or job.

The quicker you wet out and remove the excess the lighter the part will
be.  I will place a bet on that one. I have seen people play with a
brush
for over a hour on a part that I could do in 5 to 10 minutes.  What we 
teach is techniques.  

Hope that helps.

-- 
Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc.

From: "Denis Thomassin" <dthomassin@chca.ca>
Subject: Re: COZY: SportAir Video on Composite
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:02:24 -0400

Jeff.

Your comment about my concern over pourring directly they expoxy  on the
clothe is exactly the kind of
clue I was expecting from the video. How to do,  tips , etc... And I will
sure try this way next weekend.
In the EAA Sport Aviation magasin there was a series of article on composite
and in the last one they say
that AeroEpoxy do not near to be cure. I wonder what to believe. To cure or
not to cure that is the question...

I was expecting probably too much from it. But again the web site claim in
the section annoncing the video:  "Great to refresh what you learned, or if
you can't attend a workshop." On the same web site  there is an article
about Composite aircraft
http://www.sportair.com/articles/buildingcomposite.htm
this article is they exact content of the video it is an excellent article
and go to the limit of what you are able to give in writing form on the
subject.

Technicaly the video is very professional but it should add others
dimensions; sounds, animation, live demonstration and i think it would have
been fun to use this media to go one step further. I am sure the siminar is
good because there is interaction with participant and probably some handson
session. I hope it is not 2 days on how to mix epoxy. :)

I dream to see a video on the construction of the cozy !!!!

I expressed my concern to people at SportAir. and probably this forum was
not they appropriate place to share my deception.


Au revoir!
Denis Thomassin Montreal.
Working on chapter 6 and on my english :)


From: Fritzx2@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:54:49 EDT
Subject: Re: COZY: SportAir Composite Construction Workshop

>I wanted to know if anyone has attended SportAir's Composite Construction
>and Finishing Workshop.  Is it worth the time and money for this specific
>class?  Should I just get Burt's book and the practice kit?

For the cost conscious, I would read the educational 
chapter in the plans, buy the Rut an instructional video 
and if possible hook up with someone in the local EAA 
chapter who is well along on their plane.  It is amazing
how much you can learn by seeing someone well versed 
in the art of gooping and they will be more than glad to have 
some extra hands during some of the big layups.  After 
doing those three, which are relatively inexpensive, you 
should be more than ready to tackle the project. Lots of
people have probably done well with less.   Not to say that 
additional instruction wouldn't help, but it would probably 
only marginally help.  From the tone of your post, it sounds
like you're very cost conscious.  Another benefit from having the 
video is you can watch it over and over to reinforce
good habits and help prevent you from developing bad ones.  
In addition, you can defer learning techniques like hot wire core 
cutting until you are ready to do it.  On the other hand, if the 
spousal unit wants to go learn to help then maybe you should
go for no other reason than to continue that buy-in.

The Cozy plans have same and more instructional information 
than the Rutan book with the exception of the on-the-wall fold down
cutting table that was in the Rutan book that wasn't in the plans
for some reason.  I thought the table with diagonal lines already
drawn on the table was a good idea.  I was lucky and happened
to have a scrap piece of linoleum that had a straight and 45 degree
pattern on it that I used.


John Fritz
fritzx2@aol.com

From: EGStrong@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:01:00 EDT
Subject: Fwd: COZY: SportAir Composite Construction Workshop

Rick -

I did the practice kit AND the workshop.  I think that either are adequate 
for learning what you need to know.  I felt that the one big advantage of the 
workshop was that you had someone looking over your shoulder saying "that's 
right".  It's a big deal from a confidence standpoint, which is really what 
the workshops are about.  After doing my bookend per the practice kit, i 
really didn't feel that I knew what I was doing, but after taking the 
workshop, it turned out I really did!  i was rather hesitant after the 
practice kit, but ready to go for it after the workshop.  You may be able to 
contact a local "EZ" builder or EAA chapter in your area to get the same 
confidence level...


From: "Ron Alexander" <ralexander@sportair.com>
Subject: COZY: composite video
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 07:49:31 -0400

Mr. Thomassin

I am very sorry that you are dissatisfied with our video.  We spent a lot of
time and money creating what we think is a good overall review of composite
construction.  This is the first complaint we have had.  We will be
refunding your money.  I would like for you to consider attending our
composite workshop.  We have had over 1500 people attend with 95%
satisfaction.  I think you would enjoy it and find it to be a learning
experience.

Sincerely,


Ron Alexander
SportAir Workshops

