From: "Will Chorley" <anneandwill@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: COZY: Bottom is Painted!
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 19:08:20 -0600

Thanks for all the help and advice when I asked about paining the bottom of
my Cozy while I had it upside down.  As we live in the environmentally
sensitive Texas Hill Country, pump our own water and "treat" our own sewage
I decided to try Polyfibre's new "environmentally friendly" water borne
paint system.  I though it might be useful to others to recount my
experience so far with these products.   For those who don't want to read
on - it seems to work well - once you get used to it!!  Polyfibre does warn
those of you who are expert spray painters that you will have to unlearn
some of the techniques you have learned with "conventional" solvent based
paints, but for the novice like me that's not a problem!

I used their Super Fil - great stuff, mixes easily, sands even easier, is
very light - to get the big bumps out (just kidding!).  Then I took
Polyfibre's advice and rolled on the primer - no need for respirators and
all that stuff - but this didn't work as well as advertised and I ended up
sanding most of it off again.  So then I got out my trusty Graco CX7 HVLP
outfit that we had bought to spray waterborne "household" polyurethane all
over the doors, cabinets etc. of the house when we built it and I used the
same setup on the gun as I had for that job.  It spayed like a dream!  Three
coats as per instructions, pinholes really did start to disappear just as
advertised.  This dried MUCH smoother than the rolled on version and hardly
needed any sanding before putting on the UV Shield and a couple more coats
of primer to form the base for the top coat.  (You do need to wear a good
respirator when spraying this stuff 'cause it will set up inside your lungs
if you don't!)  Then the fun really started - waterborne paint runs like
crazy.  For the inexperienced ( like me - apart from all those doors and
cabinets) spray painter the dream turned into a nightmare - runs everywhere.
I decided to sand off most of the first try at applying "Top Gloss" but that
stuff is crosslinked and  is TUFF!  After much sanding, I got the runs out
and called Polyfibre for some advice.  Floyd, the expert there, was very
helpful and said it was probably better not to really "flood" the paint on
as per instructions but to put on several thinner coats.  I did this - three
coats in all, each made up of several light passes -  waiting the prescribed
time between coats, and it looked pretty good.  However, my work was not
over.   When I came to buff it, I found it was not really flat enough so I
ended up "colour sanding" most of it and then buffing.  A lot of work, but
the final result is worth it!  Pity it's the bottom and will only be seen
from a few thousand feet (I hope), but at least I was able to practice with
the materials and get the measure of the job on the rest of the plane.  It
gets turned back onto its feet again next weekend and then . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . .

Cleaning up is a dream, just fill up the gun with water and spray away!
Clean up all those mixing sticks and paddles under the tap!

Will

From: "Tom Jacobs" <tjacobs@madison.tds.net>
Subject: COZY: UV protection
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:03:00 -0600

Here is a question I have not seen in the archives.

What can you use for UV protection for small jobs?

I am making repairs to wheel pants for another plane 
and don't have a supply of Silver Shield.  (since I am
not that far on the Cozy)
Will the standard Zinc Chromate or Zinc oxide primer 
provide enough protection?
If I bought some Silver Shield now, will it still be good
in about 5 years?


Thanks to everyone for a fine mailing list, archives, and
FAQ.  Most of my questions are answered before I
even ask them.


- --- --
Tom Jacobs  tjacobs@madison.tds.net

From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:06:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: COZY: UV protection

Most finish systems suitable for the exterior, will provide adequate protection for UV. Check the 
technical information for the finish you plan to use. For one, the Ditzler Deltron system does. By 
system, I mean the primers, sealers, and top coats exactly per the manufacturer's instructions.

From: Fritzx2@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:43:22 EST
Subject: Re: COZY: UV protection

Carl Denk wrote:

> Most finish systems suitable for the exterior, will provide adequate 
> protection for UV. 

What spec supplied by the manufacturer specifies the level of UV
protection?  What is the level of minimally acceptable UV protection
or is it one of those things that it either provides UV protection
or it doesn't?

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:43:42 +0200
From: "Rego Burger" <BurgerR@telkom.co.za>
Subject: COZY: UV protection

Most Paints today are UV stable...
However because of the different wavelengths of the UV range it is
known that with prolonged (all day ) exposure to sunlight the rays can
get through even white paint and start attacking the epoxy ( without
undercoat ). So the best thing is to make sure you use undercoat of a
dark nature.... e.g. grey, green or black.  The old days they insisted
on carbon-black but it is heavy.

In my mind the best under-coat or primers are "PLASTIC" etch
primers...and not the metal-etch primers like zinc-chromate, but don't
shoot yourself in the foot if you used it.
Check out with your local auto body shops who do lots of glass cars
like Corvett's etc... just don't tell them you're painting an aeroplane
the price will go up by the square of your excitement.

P.S. this "plastic-primer" is used on bumpers etc. too before they are
painted. Naturally most of the guys in the USA can get what the plans
specify so this idea is for those who can't get the "real thing" and at
your own risk...




Rego Burger
RSA

From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:31:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: COZY: UV protection

On 02/18/99 22:43:22 you wrote:
>
>Carl Denk wrote:
>
>> Most finish systems suitable for the exterior, will provide adequate 
>> protection for UV. 
>
>What spec supplied by the manufacturer specifies the level of UV
>protection?  What is the level of minimally acceptable UV protection
>or is it one of those things that it either provides UV protection
>or it doesn't?
>
>

As far as I know, they just say they provide UV protection. THe actual numbers would be from 
either actual samples exposed to the atmosphere for some years, and a statement that the condition 
at the end of the time of the sample; or from ASTM specification for testd done in a test chamber 
that includes UV light, salt spray, heat/cold in various combinations.

There is plenty of experience with our particular construction, and I am not aware of any 
significant damage due to weathering. Yes some finishes weather on the surface more than others 
creating more work in keeping nice looking. Depending on the weathering and how shiny you want it, 
and thickness of coating, somewhere years down the airway, the primer will appear, and its time to 
refinish. I think you are overly cautious (and NOTHING wrong with being that). Stick with one of 
several name brand finishes, use only the combination of primers, color coats and top coats if 
required, applied with good workmanship per the instructions and you will be happy for years. 
Check the archives for why I prefer Deltron, and NOT Imron. or ask and I'll send it direct.

From: "Will Chorley" <anneandwill@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: COZY: UV protection
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:42:12 -0600

I have used Silver Shield on my plane (see posting on "The bottom is
painted").  (You might ask why I put UV protection on the bottom, but I
wanted to try out the complete Polyfiber system in a place that wouldn't
matter too much if I made a mess!  )  To get info on the paint, I suggest
you call Polyfiber  and ask for Floyd.  He was most helpful when I
experienced the odd little "oops" in trying out the paint process and I am
sure he will give you any information you need about the paint.  In the end
the results are, I feel, "good", though a lot of elbow grease was expended.
Now I know what I'm doing I'm going for "excellent" on the top side and
wings!

Hope this helps,

Will
From ???@??? Wed Mar 17 22:16:21 1999
Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com
Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id VAA21613 for <marcz@ultranet.com>; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:13:11 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from majordomo@localhost)
	by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA22041
	for cozy_builders-list; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:41:03 -0500
X-Authentication-Warning: twc2.betaweb.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com using -f
Received: from sakaki.communique.net (sakaki.communique.net [204.27.64.202])
	by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA22034
	for <cozy_builders@canard.com>; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:40:58 -0500
Received: from communique.net (ppp-207-204-90-26.ne.communique.net [207.204.90.26])
	by sakaki.communique.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA11996
	for <cozy_builders@canard.com>; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:28:13 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <36F05681.9F20E843@communique.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:27:29 -0600
From: "Joseph H. Hart IV" <jodyhart@communique.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405  (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: cozy_builders@canard.com
Subject: COZY: Do I have to save the finishing work for the end?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: "Joseph H. Hart IV" <jodyhart@communique.net>
X-UIDL: 8e4124e49d9c362c22d74859ff753386

Fellow Builders:

	I am about to complete Chapter 7 (bottom and one side down, one side to
go) and need to know whether there is any reason why I can't complete
the landing brake and go ahead and finish the bottom up around to the
sides a few inches.  Obviously, I just mean final contouring and not
painting as I will paint the entire plane at the same time.  I am
reaching a point where I need to slow down on the $$ for a couple of
months but will still have time to work.  As the finishing work is
relatively cheap and, from what I've heard, not much fun, but necessary,
I'd like to get some of it out of the way now.  I know that I have to
leave the forward six inches or so bare for attachment of the nose and
that I can't go so far up the sides as to reach the point where the
strakes are attached.  However, can I go ahead and start on the bottom? 
Do I need an inspection of the bottom before final finish contouring? 
Any other issues that I need to consider?

	Thanks in advance for any advice.

Jody Hart, New Orleans, Cozy Mk IV Chap. 7
see latest progress at:  http://home.communique.net/~jodyhart/home.html

From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:56:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: COZY: Do I have to save the finishing work for the end?

I built the strakes, finished the top of the strakes, and fuselage sides near ready for paint, 
rolled the plane upside down, and with the wings, and engine sometimes installed for making 
contours match, finished including paint and rub out all bottom surfaces and fuselage sides up 
(airplane right side up) to the mid-height full length paint stripe. Although it would be possible 
to blend Deltron and some other paints, I like the red stripe accent on the side. THen with the 
plane right side up, finished the rest of the plane.

From: Epplin John A <EpplinJohnA@jdcorp.deere.com>
Subject: COZY: Contour and filling
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 10:59:16 -0600 

Hi everybody

I am about to order some material for filling and contouring.  Hopefully
won't need much.  (he he)  Have noticed several posts concerning Superfil
Epoxy.  Looking in Wicks, there is also a produce called Aeropoxy Light.  I
used Aeropoxy on my wings and canopy frame, turtleback and nose etc when the
2427 became a no-no.  Was quite happy with it.  I plan on ordering a kit of
each to start with and see what happens.

Anybody used both and care to comment.  Any votes for West and microballons?
I don't mind a little more cost at this point if it means a better job
and/or easier and faster completion.

Am getting some sort of fever or something, seeing what looks like an
airplane sitting here about 90% done and only 90% to go!

John Epplin   Mk4  #467,  Now officially N100EP!



From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 11:37:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: COZY: Contour and filling

I have had many comments on the finish of my Cosy. Its all West and Micro ballons. Check the archives for my comments on 
finishing, there are may tips there. With almost 800 hours, its still looking well.

Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 16:06:33 -0500
From: Gary Dwinal <gdwinal@exploremaine.com>
Subject: Re: COZY: Contour and filling

Hi John,
   I have no experience with the Aeropoxy but I did use West System and micro to
rough fill both of my wings and then started using Superfil on the rest of the
plane.  The Superfil is much, much easier and more consistent to work with.  The
Superfil is very easy to sand compared to the West / Micro.
The Superfil costs around $120.00 for a three gallon kit but is well worth the
money in my opinion.
Good Luck,
Gary Dwinal

Epplin John A wrote:

I am about to order some material for filling and contouring. Any votes for West
and microballons?
I don't mind a little more cost at this point if it means a better job and/or
easier and faster completion.

> John Epplin   Mk4  #467,  Now officially N100EP!



From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:03:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: COZY: Contour and filling

Was said <The Superfil is very easy to sand>
I wonder, if its soft, how will it hold up long term, does someone have more than 500 hours, and 5 years on it? Don't forget 
to fill the leading edges with flox, for protection from bugs and whatever. 

Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 00:36:26 -0800
From: "LCDR James D. Newman" <infaero@flash.net>
Subject: COZY: Re:  Contour and filling

Hi John and All,

> I am about to order some material for filling and contouring.  Have noticed several posts
> concerning Superfil Epoxy.  <snip>

    I've tested several filling and contouring products (my plane looks like a calico cat) over the
years.  I really like the Super Fil by Poly Fiber [ (800) 362-3490, POC:  Jon Goldenbaum ].  Only
weighs about 3.68 lbs. per gallon when ready to smear on, is light blue, epoxy, and already
correctly mixed with the appropriate amount of microballons.  Just follow the FREE instruction
booklet ( everyone should get this booklet! ).  They have a FREE quart sample kit they will send
you.  Try it, you'll like it (and all their other products - see booklet)!
    I do mix in a little flox for all leading edges and around door openings to toughen it up.  Have
done that with ALL fillers I've ever used, not just Super Fil.
    HTH.


Infinity's Forever,

            JD

Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 10:09:40 -0500
From: Bulent Aliev <atlasyts@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: COZY: Re:  Contour and filling

Hi JD, I also mix some flox in the micro depending on the area.If it's subject to possible flexing and
cracking I will ad flox accordingly.
Regards
Bulent

"LCDR James D. Newman" wrote:

>
>     I do mix in a little flox for all leading edges and around door openings to toughen it up.  Have
> done that with ALL fillers I've ever used, not just Super Fil.
>     HTH.
>
> Infinity's Forever,
>
>             JD


From: "John Slade" <jslade@adelphia.net>
Subject: COZY: Chap 25 - finishing
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:08:03 -0400

I read a very interesting post in the archives by Tim LoDolce about use of
Z-grip filler. Apparantly Rick Castalano used it in a finishing tutorial.
I'd like an update. Is Tim still around the maillist? Anyone know his email?
John Slade, Cozy Mk IV #757

jslade@kgarden.com/cozy



From: SWrightFLY@aol.com
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:43:39 EDT
Subject: Re: COZY: Chap 25 - finishing

I have been using the "Cory Bird" method outlined in CP 77, page 4 to finish 
my Stagger EZ  and compared to the "standard method" I used to finish my 
Varieze in the early 80s, I feel it is superior. Less effort and better 
results
Step 1.....fill all over with west system dry micro
Step 2.....sand with 36 grit to contour
Step 3.....squeegee on pure west epoxy wait 6 hours
squeegee another layer of epoxy wait 24 hours 
Step 4.....Wet sand with 100 grit
Step 5 .....squeegee on pure west epoxy waite 24 hours
Step 6.....Wet sand with 220 then 320 then 400 and shoot on a good epoxy 
color and your done.
See me at my Nose Lift booth with Nat Puffer at S&F for details about this 
finishing system.
See Y'all at Lakeland. Anyone comming by Nashville and would like to see my 
Stagger EZ ...let me know.
Steve Wright

From: alwick@juno.com
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:42:05 -0700
Subject: Re: COZY: Chap 25 - finishing

On Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:43:39 EDT SWrightFLY@aol.com writes:
>Step 3.....squeegee on pure west epoxy wait 6 hours
>squeegee another layer of epoxy wait 24 hours 

What is purpose of pure epoxy in step 3 and 5? Is that to reduce
pinholes? Seem to work?
Thanks

-al wick
Canopy Latch System guy.
Artificial intelligence in Cockpit
Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.91% complete.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From: alwick@juno.com
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 15:47:37 -0700
Subject: COZY: Product report...Superfil

I filled and sanded the top half of my plane with normal epoxy/micro
method. I purchased Superfil from Spruce for the bottom. Some
observations:

General: Superfil replaces West System/micro applied under primer.
Superfil comes in 3 gallon kit. 1 gallon of part B, 2 of part A. Part A
is colored light blue. Part B is off-white. Cured, the color is very
light blue. Can be mixed by weight or volume.

Advantages of Superfil:
-It takes appx. 50 to 70% fewer sanding strokes to remove the excess
fill. Real nice.
-Superfil mixes appx. 2 to 3 times faster. You just combine 1 1/2 cups of
part A with 1 cup part B and mix. 
-If it's applied when warm (appx. 70F or higher) it is appx. 30% less
likely to lift from the glass surface when you squeegee it on. 
-I suspect it reduces the number of pinholes, but don't know for sure.

Disadvantages of Superfil:
-Much more sensitive to mix process. Very easy to end up with small areas
where part A didn't mix with part B (operator error related).
Fortunately, these areas are visible, as the two components are different
colors. You just scrape away the defect and apply some properly mixed
material.
-unknown long term effects (adhesion). However, no negatives observed.

Keys to success:
Raise temp above 70F, mix thoroughly, mix thoroughly.

FWIW

-al wick
Canopy Latch System guy.
Artificial intelligence in Cockpit
Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.92% complete.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From: Fritzx2@aol.com
Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 23:13:13 EDT
Subject: Re: COZY: Product report...Superfil

Al,

Thanks for the report on Superfil.  Having done both, for an equivalent
thickness of both epoxy/micro or Superfil, I have 2 questions:

1. Can you quantify and compare the hardness off the surface of 
each.  

2.  If it is easier to sand, is it going to be more susceptible to damage 
later 
in service or is that something that you will have to wait and see.

John Fritz
fritzx2@aol.com

From: anneandwill@att.net
Subject: Re: COZY: Product report...Superfil
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:58:59 +0000

I used Superfil on the underside of my plane and agree 
that it is very easy to use and sand.  I, too, am 
interested in it's hardness, especially when I get to 
filling the wing leading edges and other areas 
particularly exposed to impact.  Maybe mixing in some 
flox with the Superfil would improve it's hardness, as, I 
believe, many people do when using the West system.  
Problem is, Superfil is so "filled" with micro already it 
might not be possible to mix in any flox and still get 
the stuff to spread.  Might be better just using the West 
system with micro and flox where you really need a hard 
surface.  
I also used the PolyFiber water based paint system right 
through to top coat.  The fully cross linked top coat 
appears to be extremely tough and very flexible.  I did 
have a small adhesion problem betwen the primer and top 
coat initially, but the Polyfiber people told me to let 
it continue to "dry out" for a few weeks and re-test it.  
They were right!  It seems it takes a good while for all 
the water, particularly in the primer, to dry out and 
until then it doesn't develop it's full adhesion.

I would be very interested in the results of any more 
scientific tests on these products.

Will 
> Good questions John. I was trying to think of ways I could objectively
> measure hardness. But the more I think about it, hardness would likely be
> meaningless measure. If there were hardness differences, there's no way I
> could know if that characteristic was significant. Know what I mean?
> Better to find way to measure adhesion. Probably the best measure would
> be razor blade cross hatch and tape adhesion test done by painting
> industry?
> Some sort of impact test perhaps? I'll see if I can test further after
> paint on piece of scrap material.
> -al
> 
> On Sat, 8 May 1999 23:13:13 EDT Fritzx2@aol.com writes:
> > 1. Can you quantify and compare the hardness off the surface of 
> > each.  
> > 2.  If it is easier to sand, is it going to be more susceptible to 
> damage  later 
> > in service or is that something that you will have to wait and see.
> > 
> > John Fritz
> > fritzx2@aol.com
> 
> -al wick
> Canopy Latch System guy.
> Artificial intelligence in Cockpit
> Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.93% complete.
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From: Todd Carrico <todd.carrico@aris.com>
Subject: RE: COZY: Product report...Superfil
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 07:45:35 -0700

I did some work for a company that coated various materials with adhesive.
These are admintingly not as aggressive as Epoxy, but the principles are the
same.

You test adhesive in Peel (180 Degree, or 90 Degree), or Shear.  Basicly you
pull on it until it fails and measure the amount of force to make it fail,
or you hang X amount of weight on it until it comes apart and measure the
amount of time.  It is all comparison based so you would need to establish a
base line.

Hardness could be easily measured by making sveral peies of each, and press
a 1" ball bearing (Something very round, and very hard).  Press them in with
the same "force".  A hydraulic press with a 0 to 100 lb. gage would do
nicely.  Then you just measure the idiameter of the pression left in the
sample.  The smaller the impression the harder it is.

Also, I suspect that too hard is as bad or worse than too soft.

This is very simplified.  You would need to control as many variables as
possible.  Could be tough.

I sugest that we decide what are the most important aspects of filler.  Is
hardness really that important?  

IMHO I would say in this order:
1. Adhesion.....If it doesn't stay put it is worthless.
2. Longevity....If it doesn't last as long as the finish, or Ac.
3. Stability....If it grows or shrinks with age
4. Durability...If it takes impressions, or dings too Easily
5. Flexibality..If it doesn't flex as much as our structure
6. Workability..If we can't reasonably work with it

I think that is a good place to start.

tc


From: FLYCOZY@aol.com
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:41:23 EDT
Subject: COZY: West System application

Well guys,

There are a few tips i would like to share with the group regarding the 
application of the West System.  An oft encountered problem is not being able 
to get an even coat of fill on the part and still have it be thick enuf in 
one application.  A friend of mine, Doug Koster, suggested that we use a dry 
wall mixing paddle  I got mine at hHome Depot $ 10.00 anda half inch drill to 
mix the micro with the West System.  We drilled a 1/2 inch hole in the lid of 
a CLEAN 5 gallon pail.  I got my pail/buckets at a bakery ( an old frosting 
bucket).  We then got things set up and ready to fill the top of a wing.  3 
squirts of resin and 3 squirts of hardener was enuf to wet the surface with 
pure YOU MUST DO THIS STEP.  Then dump 1/4 of a kit of resin 1/4 of the 
hardener into the 5 gal bucket.  MAKE SURE THE DRILL IS READY AND PLUGGED IN, 
SQEEGY READY, BLOW DRYER PLUGGED IN AND READY, ETC.  THIS PROCEDURE REQUIRES 
TWO PEOPLE, MINIMUM.  Because you only have 20 minutes to get it spread....  
While you are mixing the West System... the lid of the bucket needs to be 
between the drill and the mixture you have just rapily concocted in the 
bucket.  The next item you will require is an underlayment trowel with a 
toothed edge.  The teeth need to be about 1/8 of an inch deep... this allows 
the fill to be spread on the surface evenly, but it will be really ruff... 
the same roughness as the toothed trowel (of course).  Then after it is mixed 
to about the consistency of cake frosting, like what you buy in a can, get it 
out of the bucket IMMEDIATELY AFTER IT IS MIXED, I MEAN THROW IT ON THE WING 
in big gobs.... Try not to mix it to fast  as you also will mix air with it,  
 the exothermic reaction take place quickly, you will notice the mixture is 
quite warm as you scoop it out of the bucket with the squeegy... you must, 
MUST, spread it quickly so it won't get too stiff and make it hard to spread 
with the smooth squeegy....  your buddy with the smooth squeegy and hair 
dryer will be following close behind the toothed trowel, smoothing out the 
ridges... the toothed trowel is necessary to allow the west system to be 
spread evenly and also thick enuf to fill the low spots. i even filled the 
really low spots prior to the big application.  5 inch smooth sqeegy works 
best for your buddy.... Don't try to get it too perfect or worry about the 
ridges.... after cure (@12 hours) use 36 grit and knock off the ridges and 
fill over any spots you think might be low.  Then contour with 36 grit, 
smooth with 80, polish with 180, admire work.  This method is not for the 
meek or week....... also before you do this throw out the nieghbors, the cat, 
the kids, and the wife if she won't help. This method of application is 
faster and results in a evener coat of west system  and will result in a 
better finish...  I used 6 kits of West System  $ 108.00 per kit including 
shipping  to fill the entire plane of coarce m ost if it was the floor or on 
everthing I own.  Buy a Good mask to protect you health Paper filter and 
charcole in the same mask. Don't be afraid to ask questions!! SAND like a 
MANIAC 
                                                                              
  Good Luck;
                                                                              
   Dennis Oelmann

From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 05:03:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: COZY: West System application

FlyCozy said <Then dump 1/4 of a kit of resin 1/4 of the hardener into the 5 gal bucket.>

I went the route of 6 or 8 thin coats of micro and didn't have any problems with pin holes. How 
were the pinholes with this method. Sounds interesting, but usually I didn't have the luxury of a 
helper for filling, and I'm not that much of a weight lifter.  

From: "RICK CAHILL" <rick.cahill@gte.net>
Subject: COZY: Polyfiber finishing process is evolving!
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 12:58:47 -0400

Greetings fellow canardians, for those of you 
who are so far along that you are thinking about painting youir airplanes by 
using the Poly Fiber water based polyurethane system, be advised of changes I 
learned about yesterday while talking with tech support. According to tech 
support, they are now advising that you use the same amount of crosslinker as 
the last coat throughout the finishing process, for all coats. They will ship 
you additional crosslinker as you need it to finish your paint process.This will 
allow better adhesion and a tougher skin for your paint. Tech suppost further 
advised that if you are done with the paint system, and have used the 
crosslinker per the directions in the applications manual,(You need to have this 
manual, to learn how to apply the paint!) That the paint already on the plane 
will be fine.the 800 number for Poly Fiber is 1-800-362-3490. Get the free 
manual about composite finishing system, and feel free to talk to tech support. 
They will bend over backwards to help you out. I found working with them to be a 
refreshing change.I hope to be at the Big O with 624RC in July, Rick Cahill, 
Columbus, Oh.
From ???@??? Tue May 25 22:46:15 1999
Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com
Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id VAA21682 for <marcz@ultranet.com>; Tue, 25 May 1999 21:04:54 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (From ???@??? Tue May 25 22:46:15 1999
Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com
Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id VAA21682 for <marcz@ultranet.com>; Tue, 25 May 1999 21:04:54 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from majordomo@localhost)
	by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA28432
	for cozy_builders-list; Tue, 25 May 1999 19:48:25 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: twc2.betaweb.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com using -f
Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199])
	by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28426
	for <cozy_builders@canard.com>; Tue, 25 May 1999 19:48:22 -0400
From: alwick@juno.com
Received: (from alwick@juno.com)
 by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EBHNHS73; Tue, 25 May 1999 20:33:25 EDT
To: cozy_builders@canard.com
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:30:33 -0700
Subject: Re: COZY: Polyfiber finishing process is evolving!
Message-ID: <19990525.173034.-149583.0.Alwick@juno.com>
X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-8,10-15
X-Juno-Att: 0
X-Juno-RefParts: 0
Sender: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: alwick@juno.com
X-UIDL: 555287cf21720127b79aa6515d7b9a58

They also have modified their primer sys to eliminate the separate UV
application. Now UV protection is included in the primer. "Silver shield"
is no longer used.

-al wick
Canopy Latch System guy.
Artificial intelligence in Cockpit
Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.94% complete.

On Tue, 25 May 1999 12:58:47 -0400 "RICK CAHILL" <rick.cahill@gte.net>
writes:

> to tech support, they are now advising that you use the same amount 
> of crosslinker as the last coat throughout the finishing process, 
> for all coats. They will ship you additional crosslinker as you need 
> it to finish your paint process.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 22:42:22 -0400
From: John <n69cz@usa.net>
Subject: Re: COZY: Interior Painting - Zolatone

I just painted the interior of my plane with Zolatone and I would like to pass
on some tips.  Do prime first.  I primed my interior with System Three primer
and added some micro and blue tint to the mix.  I brushed this mix on.  The
micro filled the weave a little and the blue tint was a nice background for the
Bright Blue Zolatone.
When spraying the Zolatone on you need to use something like a multipurpose
sprayer with a pressurized can.  The stuff is too thick to suck out and it can't
be diluted. The paint dries tack free in about two hours but stinks for about
three days.
Scratch the edge of the masking tape before removing it if your looking for a
nice line.
John Vermeylen
N69CZ



Will Chorley wrote:

> I am about to paint the inside of my plane and before I do I thought I'd
> seek some additional advice from those who have gone before.  From what I
> have learned from the local folks, I do not need to apply the Zolatone
> primer (also ACS say it's not needed over fiberglass - contrary, I might
> say, to the Zolatone folks!), but need to "scuff the surface up a bit" with
> 80 grit paper.  Any other advice?  How much "scuffing" is necessary?  I know
> that some people advise a light coat of fill so the weave of the cloth is
> not so noticeable, I this really necessary?
>
> Thanking you in advance for you help, which is always welcome.
>
> Will Chorley


From: alwick@juno.com
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 15:12:46 -0700
Subject: Re: COZY: Smooth Prime

If you were seeking the "superfil", which is the microballoon
replacement, it's best to order from wicks or spruce to save $30 per 3
gallon kit. It's great stuff if you are very thorough in mixing. I find
that it is not particularly mix ratio sensitive, although others have
reported differently. I think the average plane would use total of 6
gallons superfil.
Smooth prime is the primer and can only be purchased directly from
polyfiber at this time. By cooincidence, I just applied my first two of
six coats of the new smooth prime uv product. I like it so far. No runs,
easy to apply if you just use thin coats. I'm using 1 pint per coat to
cover all bottom surfaces and sides. So it looks like 4 gallons is going
to take care of entire plane... i think. They just bumped their price
from $85 per gallon to $115, but you come out ahead because you no longer
have to order their separate uv coat. It's real nice using a non-toxic
product.
Thanks to those who emailed info regarding their use of these products,
I've been able to avoid any significant problems. Really appreciate the
help guys.

-al wick
Canopy Latch System guy.
Artificial intelligence in Cockpit
Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.95% complete.

On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:25:27 -0500 Epplin John A
<EpplinJohnA@jdcorp.deere.com> writes:
> 	Where can I get Smooth Prime from?  Wicks will not have it 
> till next
> month, they say it is sold direct from the manufacturer.  Someone 
> surely has
> the phone or URL or address etc for it!
> 
> Thanks
> 
> John Epplin  Mk4  #467
> 
> je25272@deere.com

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

From: alwick@juno.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:37:07 -0700
Subject: COZY: Fillets and radii

I'm priming my plane now. Everything looks great except for most of my
fillets and radii. What's the secret? 
Fillets: I have used a tube covered with sand paper to make fillets
straight and consistant. However, the area where fillet transitions to
flat surface is inconsistant. Is there a special tool or method? 

Radii: I keep ending up with small ridges which follow length of radius.
Not a smooth curve.

Appreciate all suggestions. I get one area looking good and then cause
another to look bad.

FWIW, I love this water base primer. So far virtually no pin holes to
deal with. Sandable, water cleanup, no chemicals, easy to apply.

-al wick
Canopy Latch System guy.
Artificial intelligence in Cockpit
Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.95% complete.

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

From: alwick@juno.com
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:36:31 -0700
Subject: COZY: pin hole hell

I just completed painting the bottom of my plane.  I've used the new poly
fiber system. All water based. Very impressed. Pin holes are a total
non-issue. Particularly when you use the Superfil instead of normal
microballoons. Superfil is substantially better than micro. Trapped voids
are rare. Sands easy, mixes easy.
Areas where I used micro have more pinholes, but using the Smoothprime
primer is highly effective at filling pinholes. It really does flow into
holes. Must have low surface tension or something.
I also elected to use their water based "topgloss" top coat
(polyurethane). So far I really like it, but I have yet to color sand and
buff the paint, so verdict is still out. I haven't done adhesion test
yet. On my second coat (of three) of topgloss I got too aggressive and
had quite a few runs on corner radius. I elected to sand the entire coat
before applying my last coat. Final coat looks good, although areas have
a matt appearance (too lean). No runs. The top coat appearance is quite
sensitive to spray qty. More is better unless you develop runs. I had no
problems with vertical surfaces.
Lessons learned:
- Don't need to use finer than 120 grit when sanding micro or superfil.
The primer fills all those scratches fully.
- use sanding stick only to achieve straightness, from that point on use
electric random orbit sander (home depot $45) 220 grit.
- Be willing to sand primer completely off to achieve uniform appearance.
- Mix paint and primers 1 cup at a time to avoid splatter.

I've heard people describe sanding and painting as the worst part of the
process, but I enjoy it. It's great to see objects finally transformed
into airplane like appearance.
Just wanted you guys to know more about these new products. 
My superficial conclusions: Superfil micro replacement is way better.
Smoothprime primer is way better. Topgloss top coat may not be better
(lotta work)....we'll see when I'm further along.

-al wick
Canopy Latch System guy.
Artificial intelligence in Cockpit
Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.97% complete.

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

From: "John Slade" <rjslade@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: COZY: pin hole hell
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:24:44 -0400

Al,
Thanks for the post on finishing. I'm using Superfil, and plan to get some
of their new uv prime. I was wondering how much the primer would cover.
What type / make / model spray gun are you using?
John Slade Cozy #757 http://kgarden.com/cozy




From: alwick@juno.com
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:52:27 -0700
Subject: Re: COZY: pin hole hell

On Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:24:44 -0400 "John Slade" <rjslade@bellsouth.net>
writes:
> Al,
> Thanks for the post on finishing. I'm using Superfil, and plan to  get
some
> of their new uv prime. I was wondering how much the primer would 
cover.
> What type / make / model spray gun are you using?
> John Slade Cozy #757 http://kgarden.com/cozy
> 

I ordered 4 gallons of primer for whole plane. 2 gallons of top coat for
whole plane. Looks about right...hard to say.

Priming all bottom surfaces and fuse sides consumed 1.25 gallons. I
haven't primed wings. On a scale of 1 to 10, I am only trying to achieve
a 5 on bottom surfaces. If you have greater ambitions 2 gallons primer
for bottom would probably take care of things.
Clearly any ol paint gun will prime your plane. They recommend using a
roller. Very sandable. You apply 6 thin coats of primer and problably
sand off 2 to 3. I used inexpensive conventional air gun, don't know the
brand, it's been sitting around in my garage for years. They recommend
you don't use HVLP for top coat.
Have to admit I tend to discount the mfg's suggestions. They apparantly
don't use modern methods to optimize the paint process. Don't order any
materials til you need them. That way you will benefit from their latest
formulations.

-al wick
Canopy Latch System guy.
Artificial intelligence in Cockpit
Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.97% complete.

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

From: anneandwill@att.net
Subject: Re: COZY: pin hole hell
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 02:21:23 +0000

I had similar experience painting the bottom of my 
bird.  Colour sanding is a fair bit of work, but after 
doing this and buffing I was very pleased with the 
results.  'Cuse I'm not flying yet so the whole paint me 
may yet peel off!

I also had an interesting experience with Zolatone.  I 
used their water based primer - runs like hell!!  But 
after sorting out the runs applying the real stuff was a 
breeze!

Will


From: anneandwill@att.net
Subject: Re: COZY: pin hole hell
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 02:26:47 +0000

I used a Graco HVLP gun we bought to do all the finish 
work on our house for all the stages of the Polyfiber 
process. We sprayed gallons of water based polyurethane 
with it on the house. Works well on planes too!  In 
fact, if you look closely at the pictures in the 
Polyfiber instruction manual you'll see that's what 
they're using - even for the topgloss!!

Will
From ???@??? Fri Jul 09 20:56:30 1999
Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com
Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id XAA08216 for <marcz@ultranet.com>; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:42:35 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from majordomo@localhost)
	by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA09848
	for cozy_builders-list; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:10:05 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: twc2.betaweb.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com using -f
Received: from mail1.mia.bellsouth.net (mail1.mia.bellsouth.net [205.152.16.13])
	by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA09841
	for <cozy_builders@canard.com>; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:10:00 -0400
Received: from jslade (host-209-214-13-180.pbi.bellsouth.net [209.214.13.180])
	by mail1.mia.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA18235
	for <cozy_builders@canard.com>; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:08:37 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <007101bec9b7$8d82a4a0$a824fea9@jslade.pbc.adelphia.net>
From: "John Slade" <rjslade@bellsouth.net>
To: "Cozy Builders Mailing List" <cozy_builders@canard.com>
Subject: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:02:52 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Sender: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: "John Slade" <rjslade@bellsouth.net>
X-UIDL: 247a5cbd5d7c910aa5c4829fe6c87d6a

Al, Wayne,
>> I was wondering how much the primer would cover.

>It is difficult to say how much you will need for you're project.

>I ordered 4 gallons of primer for whole plane.

I wasn't so much concerned about the amount of paint needed. It'll take what
it takes. My question was referring to the types and depths of imperfections
it will cover up. I dont know how picky to get with sanding the superfil til
I see what the primer 'covers'.

Any comments on the primer's ability to hide a multitude of sins?

John Slade (carving the nose)
Cozy MkIV #757 http://kgarden.com/cozy




From: alwick@juno.com
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:00:25 -0700
Subject: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer

On Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:59:51 -0400 "John Slade" <rjslade@bellsouth.net>
writes:
> Al, Wayne,
>
> My question was referring to the types and depths of  imperfections
> it will cover up. I dont know how picky to get with sanding the
superfil til
> I see what the primer 'covers'.
> 
> Any comments on the primer's ability to hide a multitude of sins?
> John Slade (carving the nose)

Sorry, I misunderstood. You can count on the primer eliminating all
normal scratches caused by 120 grit paper. That's about the best way to
describe it. Really quite good. It doesn't cover any other
discontinuities like dings, dips etc. Large pinholes are best eliminated
with superfil, but you can use primer if you give it an extra shot of
primer after you have done the rest of the surface. I wouldn't give a
thought to pinholes until I applied the 1st coat of primer. They really
show up then. Not too many if you use superfil micro stuff.
I had a couple spots develop a crack after 1st couple coats of primer
(1/8 diam area). Unknown cause. I dug them out, but left 1. It fills in
with subsequent coats. No problem.
If you have perfectly flat surface with 120 grit, you are good to go. You
may have to sand off most of the primer and reprime worst case. But
that's a piece of cake. It only takes a couple of hours to sand off all
primer from bottom of fuselage.
80% of my surface defects are caused during the touchup phase. You know,
I've sanded the micro, then found low spot, filled it but didn't resand
it fully.
Hope this helps, tough to describe these subjective things.

-al wick
Canopy Latch System guy.
Artificial intelligence in Cockpit
Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.97% complete.

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

From: "Will Chorley" <anneandwill@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:14:02 -0500

I had a few spots crack also when I sprayed on the  primer.  I found that
they were over areas where the Superfil had not cured properly.  I have not
found a good way to ensure that the Superfil is completely mixed and have
had a few soft spots as a result. ( I think they come from scraping that
last little bit of Superfil from the pot and it doesn't get mixed properly
around the edges.) You have to dig these out and re-fill them - another
evening gone!  The fact that the primer will crack over the soft spots is a
good way to find any that you've missed!.

Will

From: alwick@juno.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:51:17 -0700
Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer

Will, I forgot to mention another important improvement. Your message
reminded me. DON'T mix Superfil in a container. Use a piece of scrap wood
to mix on. Sorta like a painters pallet. It works great, is reusable, and
you don't end up with areas not mixed.
I'm using a piece of impregnated wood (what do you call that stuff?) appx
4" x 8" x 3/4". Cut the edges square and sharp, it makes for easy
scraping of the mix from you applicator. I'll never use a pot again.
Totally eliminates the problem, no waste.


-al wick
Canopy Latch System guy.
Artificial intelligence in Cockpit
Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.97% complete.

On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:14:02 -0500 "Will Chorley"
<anneandwill@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> had a few soft spots as a result. ( I think they come from scraping
that
> last little bit of Superfil from the pot and it doesn't get mixed
properly
> around the edges.) 
> Will
> 

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

From: Epplin John A <EpplinJohnA@jdcorp.deere.com>
Subject: RE: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:44:58 -0500



> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ugolini, Nick J [SMTP:UgoliniNJ@efdsouth.navfac.navy.mil]
> Sent:	Tuesday, July 13, 1999 6:52 AM
> To:	Cozy Builders Mailing List
> Subject:	RE: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer
> 
> Tried to purchase the primer from ACS yesterday.  They are not selling it
> until sometime in August.  Apparently, the company is "reformulating" the
> primer again and is not allowing sales..??  Makes me wonder.
> 
> Nick
> N29TM
> 
> 
	[Epplin John A]  
	Got some direct from Polyfiber about 10 days ago.  They told me that
they would have it on the dealers shelves the week of July 12. This week.
Wicks told be the same thing about 3 week ago.  You might give either one a
call.  The new stuff contains the UV blocker, eliminating this step.
	I am ready to try it, spent last evening touching up a few minor pin
holes etc.  I am only doing the bottom of one strake for the first shot,
maybe not to smart but I want to try a small area first.

	John Epplin   Mk4  #467

From: SWrightFLY@aol.com
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:29:50 EDT
Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer

In a message dated 7/13/99 6:55:45 AM Central Daylight Time, 
UgoliniNJ@efdsouth.navfac.navy.mil writes:

<< Makes me wonder. >>
I just selected the color for the Stagger EZ (bright yellow) by working with 
the same fellow who painted my Varieze 17 years ago (and the finish still 
looks good). He is the owner of a body shop and is a degreed chemist. He is 
aware of the water based primer and recommended I not use this material as a 
base for the PPG final coat. He thinks the  future looks good that all 
coatings will be water based but he feels the present system will not hold up 
over time and that more research and development is needed 
.................his opinion.
Steve

From: alwick@juno.com
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:07:58 -0700
Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer

I am using the reformulated stuff. Love it! You buy primer and topcoat
directly from Polyfiber.
I just color sanded and buffed bottom of plane yesterday. Should be able
to finish up today. It looks real good, only flaws are related to my not
sanding perfectly flat during micro stage. So far I've been unable to
find any problems with primer or topcoat material, but it's good to be
cautious.

-al wick
Canopy Latch System guy.
Artificial intelligence in Cockpit
Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.97% complete.

On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:52:02 -0400 "Ugolini, Nick J"
<UgoliniNJ@efdsouth.navfac.navy.mil> writes:
> Tried to purchase the primer from ACS yesterday.  They are not 
> selling it
> until sometime in August.  Apparently, the company is 
> "reformulating" the
> primer again and is not allowing sales..??  Makes me wonder.
> 
> Nick
> N29TM

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

From: "Ugolini, Nick J" <UgoliniNJ@efdsouth.navfac.navy.mil>
Subject: RE: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:38:18 -0400

Just got off the phone with poly fiber.....  I am planning to try their
filler and primer (for pin holes) on my baggage pods.  

Here are some answers to my questions:

The filler takes about 8 hrs to dry to begin sanding.  You have to allow 2
days to fully dry before using the Smooth Prime.

Smooth prime need about 2 hrs between coats. Sand in 2 hrs.  Allow 8 hours
before top coating with your chosen finish.

I told him I will be using PPG (my favorite) finish.  He told me NO PROBLEMS
using a polyurethane finish over their primer....   

I will use the wet on wet technique for the PPG as specified in their
technical bulletins.  Shoot a wet coat of primer and before it dries (about
30 min) you shoot your finish coat.  The primer coats the surface (even
color and base attachment) and then the top coat.  I have used it many time
is the past and works great.   I believe in PPG.  I painted my canard (550
hrs no rain erosion) and prop (300+ hrs)  and both still look as good as the
day I buffed them out.  Much easier to shoot than Imron.

Nick


-----Original Message-----
From: George A. Graham [mailto:ca266@freenet.buffalo.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 10:35 AM
To: SWrightFLY@aol.com
Cc: cozy_builders@canard.com
Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer


On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 SWrightFLY@aol.com wrote:

" he feels the present system will not hold up 
> over time and that more research and development is needed 
> .................his opinion.
> Steve
> 

Steve, I think your painter is full of --it.

  My opinion...

George Graham
RX-7 Powered Graham-EZ, N4449E
Homepage <http://freenet.buffalo.edu/~ca266>

From: alwick@juno.com
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:26:47 -0700
Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer

On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:29:50 EDT SWrightFLY@aol.com writes:
> looks good). He is the owner of a body shop and is a degreed 
> chemist. He is  aware of the water based primer and recommended I not
use this 
> material as a  base for the PPG final coat. He thinks the  future looks
good that all 
> coatings will be water based but he feels the present system will not
hold up 
> over time and that more research and development is needed 
> .................his opinion.
> Steve

Steve, did he provide any details, or is he just speculating based upon
his experience?

Well, anyway, glad you posted this. It prompted me to do cross hatch
adhesion test. My polyfiber paint has finally had 6 days to fully cure.
For those not familiar, 90% of all paint failures are due to poor
adhesion (either interlayer, or more often substrate adhesion). The best
test for this is cross hatch test. You take razor blade and score thru
the paint layers all the way into substrate. I no longer have astm test
procedure available, but the details aren't all that important. I cut 6
parallel lines, appx. 1/10 inch apart. Then cut 6 more at right angle.
Looks like a tic tac toe board. Then you apply sticky tape, press firmly,
then pull off at moderate speed. Duct tape works fine (and represents a
severe test). If any paint pulls off, you have problem.
I passed the test. No paint pulled off. Good news. Doesn't say much about
whether it's compatible to ppg.
A note for the techno guys in the group: I think you'll find a direct
correlation of the above test to the official astm test. Poor adhesion is
eager to show, and is evident regardless of how close you follow astm
procedure.

Well, back to color sanding for me. I have found that to be the key
factor in finish appearance. Two hours of color sanding the bottom is not
enough.


-al wick
Canopy Latch System guy.
Artificial intelligence in Cockpit
Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.97% complete.


___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

From: SWrightFLY@aol.com
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:48:00 EDT
Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer

In a message dated 7/13/99 12:37:29 PM Central Daylight Time, alwick@juno.com 
writes:

<< Steve, did he provide any details, or is he just speculating based upon
 his experience? >>
Just speculating...........

From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:00:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer

<recommended I not use this  material as a  base for the PPG final coat>

I'll go further, only use a complete system of coating, THe manufacturer of the top coat, knows best what will make it perform 
best. Re PPG, for Deltron, they recommend an epoxy seal (bond) coat. Definately don't use a laquer base primer/sealer, there 
just isn't the bond. It all looks well, but when push comes to shove, like bugs hitting at 200 mph, what happens.

There isn't that much savings in money or time to do it right, why fight the flow!

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:08:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: "George A. Graham" <ca266@freenet.buffalo.edu>
Subject: COZY: Let the painter choose.



In haste to save the damsel-in-distress, I overlooked the obvious.


If you hire a painter, and they have the tools and know-how to use
a paint, then for certain let them call it.

However, if you are going to learn painting in your house or garage,
then I say have a look at the Smooth Prime & Top Gloss.  

I did order a System III tryout package, which was well done, but the
paint was garbage.


George Graham
RX-7 Powered Graham-EZ, N4449E
Homepage <http://freenet.buffalo.edu/~ca266>

From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:52:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: COZY: Let the painter choose.

<If you hire a painter, and they have the tools and know-how to use
a paint, then for certain let them call it.>

I disagree, stick with one manufacturer for an entire finish system, and the instructions that come with it. Insist the 
professional does that. A major manufacturer like Ditzler, Dupont, etc. does considerable testing to minimize their liability.   
Refinishing a composite aircraft is very difficult at best, why for such small savings of time and money gamble. Fly to Reno 
instead.

From: Lee810@aol.com
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:50:56 EDT
Subject: COZY: Water based paints

I have seen so many postings extolling the virtues of water-based paint 
products on this forum that I can't take it anymore.  I feel that the MOST 
IMPORTANT measure of a paint's performance is its ability not to begin 
popping off the plane after several years of flying.  You really should fly 
your plane for several years before trying to convince others on how great 
these newfangled paint products are.  The last thing I want to hear is gushy 
statements about ease of use and reports of salesmen saying 'no problem' on 
long term adhesion characteristics to various primers.   

I have read enough horror stories about recalls and reformulations on these 
water-based paints that I don't think I'd use them even if I got the 
materials for free.  My plane (painted with Imron) has enough paint coming 
loose after 5-10 years that I can't imagine how someone with several weeks of 
experience with a new product can in good conscience get on this forum and 
attempt to convince everyone of its superiority.   

Having said that, I do admire your adventurous spirit and would be happy to 
hear of your experiences AFTER you've flown these paints for several years.

Lee Devlin
Greeley, CO

 

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:58:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: "George A. Graham" <ca266@freenet.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Re: COZY: Water based paints

On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 Lee810@aol.com wrote:

<snip>
 I do admire your adventurous spirit and would be happy to 
> hear of your experiences AFTER you've flown these paints for several years.
> 

My bird has sat outside, through our normal brutal winter weather.  I've
scraped the ice off, and "banged" it off when it was too thick to scrape.

I flew it every day when possible, in temps as low as 10 deg F., in rain
and through bugs. 

Nary a crack or a blemish.

I know that those of you who fought the pin holes, do have reason to be
jealous of we whose daring adventurous spirit allowed us to try something
new.

Some of you were even willing to make a their own propellor using a new
method and materials, now that is adventurous!

 
George Graham
RX-7 Powered Graham-EZ, N4449E
Homepage <http://freenet.buffalo.edu/~ca266>

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:04:43 -0500
From: David Domeier <david010@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: COZY: Water based paints

Lee,

    I tried System Three several years ago and never went beyond the
primer stage.  That stuff may have worked on boats, but it didn't on
airplanes. (or I never learned how to use it)

    I think, though, the technology of water based paint has improved
significantly- mostly because of federal rules.  I do believe it is the
only legal auto paint in California today and as a result GM cars are
painted with a water base product that is heat cured.  I haven't seen
documentation on the process, but I do know my '99 GM auto is gorgeous
and the salesman said it is a water based product.

    The problem for we homebuilders, I think, is getting water base
paint to dry in a reasonable time.  Water, it seems, does not leave the
surface as quickly as the harmful solvents that have been used for
years.  I used Dupont's base coat/clear coat on my airplane and that
stuff dried quick, but is very toxic.  One must wear a mask and be
ventilated.

    Finishing and painting an airplane, IMHO, is a minor night mare.
Many of us simply do not have the skill, set up, and in my case
patience, to do first rate job.  We built, fill, sand, fill, sand, and
the hangar or garage is now the least suitable place on the planet to
paint because of all the dust.  I did a very thorough job of cleaning my
hangar and hosing it down each time before painting, but there was some
dirt present in the air always.  I even built a tent with a fan for
ventilation and it seemed to matter not.  When you look at the paint set
up in any auto repair shop, you know how difficult it is to control
dirt.

    My wife and friends say the airplane looks great - and it does from
10 feet - but I've been up close and know every shiny speck on it.

dd



From: "Wilhelmson, Jack" <Wilhelmson@scra.org>
Subject: RE: COZY: Water based paints
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:21:36 -0400

Lee:

Your reply to all this stuff about water based paint is RIGHT ON!

I too have been through the mill with various primers and paints. 

The true test is how is it hanging in there after two or three years.

I would not recommend any primer paint system unless I had at least 
two years and 200 hrs of flying time on it. 

Most new builders have not had the experience of having the paint slowly
release over a period of years causing continuous repair to keep the
airplane
looking good or stripping the whole aircraft down to the
micro layer and starting over.

Jack Wilhelmson N711cz.
From ???@??? Thu Jul 15 22:36:19 1999
Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com
Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id SAA26841 for <marcz@ultranet.com>; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:56:14 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from majordomo@localhost)
	by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA00959
	for cozy_builders-list; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:21:15 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: twc2.betaweb.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com using -f
Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199])
	by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00954
	for <cozy_builders@canard.com>; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:21:12 -0400
From: alwick@juno.com
Received: (from alwick@juno.com)
 by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EFLQTTJY; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:14:21 EDT
To: cozy_builders@canard.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:11:17 -0700
Subject: Re: COZY: Water based paints
Message-ID: <19990715.151118.-171437.1.Alwick@juno.com>
X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,7,12-13,15,19-27,29-30
X-Juno-Att: 0
X-Juno-RefParts: 0
Sender: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: alwick@juno.com
X-UIDL: d7c7e01760dd7380c254189b686df06b

Lee,Jack, your point well taken. We don't have much long term info.
I'm not a paint expert, but have done some designed experimentsFrom ???@??? Thu Jul 15 22:36:19 1999
Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com
Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id SAA26841 for <marcz@ultranet.com>; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:56:14 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from majordomo@localhost)
	by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA00959
	for cozy_builders-list; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:21:15 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: twc2.betaweb.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com using -f
Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199])
	by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00954
	for <cozy_builders@canard.com>; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:21:12 -0400
From: alwick@juno.com
Received: (from alwick@juno.com)
 by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EFLQTTJY; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:14:21 EDT
To: cozy_builders@canard.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:11:17 -0700
Subject: Re: COZY: Water based paints
Message-ID: <19990715.151118.-171437.1.Alwick@juno.com>
X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,7,12-13,15,19-27,29-30
X-Juno-Att: 0
X-Juno-RefParts: 0
Sender: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: alwick@juno.com
X-UIDL: d7c7e01760dd7380c254189b686df06b

Lee,Jack, your point well taken. We don't have much long term info.
I'm not a paint expert, but have done some designed experiments on paint
adhesion and been involved with a company that did class 1 painting.
There may be rare exceptions, but  if you have adhesion problems, it
likely occurred when you painted it. It just shows up later due to
vibration, flex etc. The cross hatch test is an excellent way to verify
adhesion is ok. If you pass it, you will be ok years later (provided test
area saw same prep as the rest of the plane).
Personally, I'm very grateful for the guys who posted their PRELIMINARY
analysis of the water base paints. I would not have considered them
otherwise. I learned a lot and had no difficulties during application due
to their sharing. For my part, THANKS for sharing and keep those cards
and letters comin!

I'm quite pleased that my water based paints passed the cross hatch
adhesion test.
I just LOVE my water based paints...and golly gee, that Superfil is
great!...Darn, I started gushing again. You know, that Insignia white
also makes for a great mouthwash. Wow does it whiten teeth! And no
harmful chemicals!
 
-al wick
Canopy Latch System guy.
Artificial intelligence in Cockpit
Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.97% complete.

On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:50:56 EDT Lee810@aol.com writes:
>  The last thing I want to hear is gushy 
> statements about ease of use and reports of salesmen saying 'no 
problem' on 
> long term adhesion characteristics to various primers.   
>
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

From: "Will Chorley" <anneandwill@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:58:17 -0500

I can' t believe that we are the only people trying to use these water based
products!  Maybe we should be asking outside of our closed group to see who
else has used these paints and how long they have been flying and what their
experience has been.  I believe that Polyfiber has been developing this
system for some time and has only recently made it generally available.  I
also heard that Europa Aircraft have used the system and, if this is true
and they used it on their demonstrator, it seems to stand up well - even in
the Florida sun!

The main problems that I had applying it were its tendency to run.  My first
try with the primer was a disaster on any vertical surface and I had to sand
most of it off.  Because of this, it is very difficult to get a really
smooth finish with the top coat so the need for colour sanding is almost a
dead cert!  It took me about 10 hours to colour sand the bottom of my plane
to a point I was happy with it using 1000, 1500, and 2000 grit wet.  After
buffing, I think it looks pretty good - got lots of compliments from others
as well so it can't be too bad!

Keep sanding!

Will



From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:00:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer

Was said <10 hours to colour sand the bottom of my plane>

Took me about 2 hours (less than 1 evening) to do the Deltron bottom of mine including buffing, etc to a high gloss, and that 
was the first time I worked with Deltron, improved much next area.

From: mikefly@juno.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 00:21:57 -0500
Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer



On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:14:02 -0500 "Will Chorley"
<anneandwill@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>I had a few spots crack also when I sprayed on the  primer.  I found 
>that
>they were over areas where the Superfil had not cured properly.  I 
>have not
>found a good way to ensure that the Superfil is completely mixed and 
>have
>had a few soft spots as a result. ( I think they come from scraping 
>that
>last little bit of Superfil from the pot and it doesn't get mixed 
>properly
>around the edges.) 

I have been mixing superfil on a piece of cardboard, with a putty knife.
Using a scrape, fold & pull motion, I can mix thoroughly & squeeze out
air. Application is with a 5" drywall blade, which also tends to squeeze
air out and has less tendency to drag at the edge.

mbb 

From: Wayne Hicks <WHicks@SPACETEC.Zeltech.com>
Subject: COZY: UV Protection
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:35:46 -0400


Is there any reason to spray the UV coating on the underside of the wings
and fuselage?

____________________________________________________
L. Wayne Hicks		Space Operations Division 
Sr. Engineer		Zel Technologies, LLC
757-865-0900 phone	3221 North Armistead Ave
757-865-8960 fax	Hampton, VA 23666
http://www.zeltech.com

From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:49:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: COZY: UV Protection

What paint needs a separate UV coating, Most (Ditzler, Dupont, etc.) have that when you follow their system, i.e. a sealer, 
primer, or bond (same thing different names) coat and top coats (either clearcoat or single coat).

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:58:22 -0400
From: "Marc J. Zeitlin" <marcz@ultranet.com>
Subject: Fwd: COZY: UV Protection

Wayne Hicks asks;

>Is there any reason to spray the UV coating on the underside of the wings
>and fuselage?

No.  And there's apparently no reason to do the top, either.  Check the
archives - I believe that we've had this discussion and been told by those
who know better that any paint with solids in it (which is any paint) will
block the UV.  This implies (or at least I infer) that no seperate UV
blocker is required as long as you paint the plane.
--
Marc J. Zeitlin           mailto:marcz@ultranet.com
                          http://www.ultranet.com/~marcz/

From: Epplin John A <EpplinJohnA@jdcorp.deere.com>
Subject: COZY: Fill & finish, pressure washing
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:46:05 -0500

Have been working on the fuse bottom for a month now trying to get it
primed.  Many interruptions, OSH and all.  I made mention of my status at a
local chapter pot luck over the weekend.  I said I was going to wash it down
and start the Smooth Prime process, getting tired of fussing around with
small details.  Someone suggested I use a high pressure washer.  Thought
about this for a bit and decided this was a good idea.  I have a small one,
not enough pressure to destroy anything.  I rolled the ship out, on jacks,
upside-down, and sprayed away.  What an awakening!  I found there was about
a half zillion bubbles in the Super-Fill I used for fill and contour.  Just
wiping the surface was not getting the sanding dust out of the small ones so
they sort of stayed hidden.  I had used a shop vac many times and found
larger ones but not the small ones that appeared now.  This was put  on for
the most part at a temperature of 90+, don't know if this contributed to the
bubbles or not.  I let everything set out in the sun, was a beautiful day
here, sunny and dry.  After it dried, I mixed a small amount of Super Fill
and worked it all over the surface using a steel drywall trowel, the idea
was to not add any thickness, just fill the holes.  The process seemed to
work pretty good, using a lot of pressure on the tool.  After the stuff
hardened, sanded with a flexible sanding board, did not take long, and now
things look really good.  I will get to priming soon, have several other
commitments for the rest of the week but will get a little time to start, I
hope.  The Smooth Prime may have filled most of these if the dust would
float out, don't know but I feel a lot better knowing I have got rid of all
that I could.

John Epplin   Mk4  #467

Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:31:38 -0400
From: Robin & Steve <cozyiii@earthlink.net>
Subject: COZY: Inside corner radii - get 'em just right, for what it's worth

Someone once said man is born with a specific amount of sanding
in his body. When consumed - that's it , there ain't no more. I
have depleted my reserve.

Anyway, I believe it was Al Wick who requested ideas on getting
the "perfect" inside corner radius (excuse me Al if it wasn't
you, those damaged brain cells from the early 70's you know), I
think I have stumbled (literally) onto an idea that seems to
work for us. Using one of those spring type tubing benders (we
are using the one for 5/8" tube - Wicks #100-5/8 page 74 Catalog
1999) with a piece of adhesive backed sand paper - course grit
to start, or similar, wrapped around the spring seems to work
nicely. You can flex the spring giving a place to hang on and
rub away. The radii we have made look pretty nice, not too bad
on the hands either.

For those who are getting to that point, past that point but
aren't happy with their results, those who have yet to consume
their sanding reserve and just want to sand to sand, you may
want to give it a try. As I said, for what it's worth.
-- 
Steven D. Sharp
cozyiii@earthlink.net
ICQ#: 9925394

Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 19:05:52 -0700
From: Eric Westland <ewestland@altavista.net>
Subject: COZY: Color Trim Web Sites


Some time ago I asked where folks found graphic decal kits to decorate
their airplanes after the "sticker shock" (pun sort of intended) for
getting custom decals made locally.  I received many helpful
suggestions, but had little luck finding a decent local source.  So, I
went cruising on the internet and dug up the following sites.  I hope
some of you can find them useful.

I ended up ordering a kit from the first one, Auto Trim Express.  They
don't sell direct, but were very happy to mail me a catalog along with
some small material samples.  A call to them linked me with a
distributor in Portland, Oregon (I told them I was in the airplane
manufacturing business) and for $35, I had a 3" by 120" kit.  Applying
it was a snap after reading some of the application tips located on a
few of these sites.  Using a spray solution of water and isopropyl
alcohol allowed me to get it positioned just right.

Thanks again to those that initially responded and got me started.

Here they are:

http://www.autotrimexpress.com/

http://www.stripeman.com/

http://www.phoenixgraphix.com/custom.htm

http://customautotrim.com/products/graphics.htm

http://www.u-p.com/Strifmst.html

http://www.prostripe.com/

http://www.lbgraphics.com/

Eric Westland
Cozy Mark IV N325PD
Mukilteo, WA

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 21:37:41 -0400
From: "L. Wayne Hicks" <lwhicks@erols.com>
Subject: COZY: How much Superfill for Canard?

How much Superfill I should order to fill and sand my canard?

Wayne Hicks
Cozy IV #678
Chapter 18
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/2027

From: alwick@juno.com
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:07:13 -0700
Subject: Re: COZY: How much Superfill for Canard?

I'd guestimate that 2 qts would be adequate.


-al wick
Canopy Latch System guy.
Artificial intelligence in Cockpit
Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr 101% complete.

On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 21:37:41 -0400 "L. Wayne Hicks" <lwhicks@erols.com>
writes:
> How much Superfill I should order to fill and sand my canard?
> 
> Wayne Hicks
> Cozy IV #678

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

From: "John Slade" <rjslade@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: COZY: How much Superfill for Canard?
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:36:03 -0400

Wayne,
If your canard is fairly smooth then one "kit" will probably do it. Two at
most. The technique is to do a first coat which fills the weave and nothing
more. Put it on, then squeege it off as much as you can.
Regards,
John Slade
Cozy #757 (chap 11)
progress: http://kgarden.com/cozy

-----Original Message-----
From: L. Wayne Hicks <lwhicks@erols.com>
To: cozy_builders@canard.com <cozy_builders@canard.com>
Date: Sunday, September 05, 1999 10:09 PM
Subject: COZY: How much Superfill for Canard?


>How much Superfill I should order to fill and sand my canard?
>
>Wayne Hicks
>Cozy IV #678
>Chapter 18
>http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/2027
>

From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:44:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: COZY: Deltron Paint

Purchased a small quantity of Deltron at my favorite local store today. They told me Deltron is getting phased out, with the 
DAU-2 catalyst being first. The recommended I transition to Concept 2002. The DT??? reducers will continue to be used by the 
new product. Note that there is also a Concept 2001 line of coatings that is getting phased out also. Make sure the new is the 
Concept 2002. As far as I can tell other than a different name, the 2002 will have the same nice features including 
easy invisible repairs. 

From: FLYCOZY@aol.com
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 21:30:01 EDT
Subject: COZY: Re. finishing  /  croming

 I  am nearing compleation of cozy  Mark IV N92VT.  Last week I was working 
on fitting the spinner which I purchased from Brock.  I felt the spinner was 
of high quality, " its a bullet spinner "  and making the cutouts for the 3 
blade performance propeller was quite simple. It took me about four hours to 
cut out the prop holes and get the required clearances and polish the 
cutouts.  I would recomend the brock spinner to anyone putting one on their 
Cozy.  
    I liked this spinner better than the one I  had on my Cozy 3 place 
because the holes were pre drilled through the spinner base into the flow 
guide around the prop extension.  This made the spinner wobble proof because 
it was done while both parts were still in the mill.  
     I recently replaced the spinner on my 3 place cozy because of a crack 
with a  spinner  with  a slight wobble in it.   It had 350 plus hours on it.  
I purchased that spinner from another builder I'm not sure who made that one, 
 but I never did like the wobble that it had.  ! So after installing two 
spinners  within two weeks I feel like I'm  a pro. but I still had to polish 
them both and I was'nt looking forward to that.  So I started checking around 
who does crome plating of aluminum.  I found a place within 100 miles of 
where I live that does this process . A.I.H. CROME PLATING in Dubuque, Iowa   
phone 319- 582-8235 ask for Russ cost was $ 105.00  for each spinner. They 
said they do a lot of spinners and I thought the price was reasonable. 
       Somebody said a few months ago why don't the guys who have built 
before put more information on the builders home page.  I can't answer for 
them but I've been busy building.  I used 6 kits of west system to fill and 
contour the entire Mark IV most of which ended up on the floor. I used Rinson 
Mason High build primer. This stuff fills a 36 grit scratch!! Final top coat 
was P.P.G. concept 2000 urathane DAU 2 .  Toyota White it looks fabulious!!!  
 I started filling on April 20 and I put the top coat on July 16.  700 hrs. 
sanding. HARD WORK...  By the way Doug Koster I have'nt forgotten the steak 
dinner you owe me !!! He bet me I could'nt get it finished in less than 2 
months. I'm sold on the west system and urathane paint the finish on my cozy 
3 looks as good as it did 12 years age when I finished it. Except for the 
normal scratches  ya always get when ya use them. I've been hearing that a 
lot of builders are useing this water base paint systems.  My good friend Tim 
Merrill  Grand Champion 96  experimented with this stuff  5 years ago and he 
abandon the Idea and used urathane paint.  Thats what all the award winners 
are using.  I chose to go with the flow.  If ya get the drift don't inhale.  
My opinion only,   water dase reminds me of kindergarten and water base mess. 
just my thoughts for the evening. 
                                                                              
       Dennis Oelmann 

From: alwick@juno.com
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:11:33 -0800
Subject: COZY: canard ridge

Is the painted canard supposed to have a ridge on bottom side? The
template shows one, but I always thought that the ridge was intended as a
lap point for the glass layer.
I want to paint my plane tomorrow, but not if that ridge isn't sposed to
be there.
thanks!!

-al wick
Canopy Latch System guy.
Artificial intelligence in Cockpit
Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr 106% complete, Aug 00 first
flight sched..

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

From: "Capps Family" <capps@mediaone.net>
Subject: COZY: Working with PolyFiber and Paint
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 23:10:25 -0600

To All,

I received this email via third party, I feel the group would be interested
in the topic.

READ ON:

One of the guys in our EAA chapter(Bernie Wilder) has "re-invented" the
painting process working with PolyFiber while painting his Pulsar.  As he
told us, there had to be a better way than the never ending prime,
sand, prime, sand, and paint and then sand and prime some more.....He
started experimenting using paint rollers (he took a very scientific
approach to the problem) and found out how many layers it would take and
how much sanding was needed(very little for the prime coats).

We had a chapter meeting at his home and his Pulsar looked like it had a
porcelain smooth finish.  He also found out that you could mix the UV
protector with the primer.  The company has basically taken his ideas and
incorporated his processes (they did name the process after him and if you
were at Oshkosh during the composite painting forum, they gave him all the
credit).  I have attached a few of his e-mails with his permission that
discuss some of his thoughts.
Bernie Wunder
Lexington Park, MD
bwunder@tqci.net
kr2s plans in hand
.------------------------------------
Bernie Wilder E-mails:
Smooth Prime usually causes people no problem, mainly because it is easy
to
sand down smooth after you get some unevenness.  TopGloss is different.
You
must spray differently than you do
the paints with a flash solvent. You must use light coats,,,I put on four
light coats and then color sand and polish. ((You must color sand and
polish this stuff if you have the level of skills that I have. Maybe a
professional who has mastered water bornes could get a good enough final
coat,,,I can't.))  Also, Top Gloss works best with a high pressure system.
Atomizes the paint better, and if you don't get it atomized, you can't
control it. I had never sprayed the flash solvent stuff, so I didn't have
to unlearn an old technique. Just learn the new one.  If they try to apply
water bornes like solvent based paints, they will fail.

Guys better learn to use the water bornes because it won't be long
before you won't be able to ship the solvent based stuff through normal
channels - - like UPS, motor freight, etc. They require shipment as
hazardous materials now,,,wait until it gets tighter. The military uses a
lot of water bornes now and I am told will eventually require all military
painting to be done with the environmentally friendly water born paints.
---------------------
Another tip from Bernie Wilder:
> After applying TopGloss and letting it set for a week, I began wet color
> sanding by hand. A bucket of water, a sponge,  rubber sanding block and
> away we go........After a bit I thought there must be a better way.
>
> I bought a DeWalt palm sander. A bucket of water, a sponge, a DeWalt
sander
> and away we go........It worked fine.
>
> BUT>>>>>>The sander burnt out in short order.
>
> I visited the local Mom  and Pop auto painting shop and asked how they
> color sanded.
>
> A "Windex"  spray bottle, an air powered sander and away they
> went........Don't put the water on with a sponge they said, just spray on
> enough with a Windex bottle to keep it wet. Works as well and less mess,
> they said.
>
> I didn't want to go the air powered route so I took another look at the
> burnt out palm sander to see what went wrong. I thought maybe that if I
> plugged the holes where the sander sucks off the dust, maybe the water
> wouldn't get into the bearings of the sander and it would hold up.
>
> I bought another DeWalt sander and plugged the holes with silicon
caulking
> compound. I got an old Windex bottle, filled it with water and went at it
> again. As the Egyptians say, "NooooooooooooProblem".  The sander has held
> up. Color sanding is easy, though it takes a little time. It is worth it!
----------------
and other one:
It is conventional wisdom that all fillers for composites settle over
> time,,,PolyFiber's UVSmooth Prime amongst them. Polyfiber is working on
> alternative material to minimize this but they are not available yet, nor
> probably in the near term.
>
> How much the settling of the filler ultimately shows is relative to the
> differential thickness of the filler on the surface of the panel. How
fast
> they settle is still an open question. I am confident that the speed of
> settling is not linear but that it settles fast at first and the rate then
> decreases and, if plotted,  becomes an asymptotic line. Heat accelerates
> the settling (actually shrinking), but you can't put your plane in an 150
> degree oven over night. If applying just UVSP, I would wait at least two
> months after applying UVSP before sanding it down for the   top   coat.
>
> My advice has been to prime early and don't try to rush it.
>
> I found myself in a position where I wanted to rush it with my wings and
> tried an alternative material that worked - also made by PolyFiber,, the
> Superfil that we all use to fill larger holes. ((Superfil is very stable
> and doesn't shrink.))
>
> I tried several samples to come up with the following  procedure:
>
> I applied a layer with a three inch putty knife, forcing it into the
> surface with the blade held quite flat against the surface. I didn't try
to
> wipe it off the surface, just force it in and left a layer about 1/8"
thick
> on the surface. I went right back over the surface with the putty knife
> with the blade held at about a 45 degree angle and wiped all off the
> surface that I could.  I did one three inch strip at a time. I found it
> important to move the knife slowly for both the initial coating and when
> wiping the first layer off the surface. It doesn't look as if there is
much
> left  on the surface,,,but if you really pushed it into the surface on
the
> first application, there is enough.
>
> I let it dry overnight and then applied a guide coat of black lacquer. I
> sanded the surface down smooth using 80 grit paper. ((Yes, that is pretty
> rough stuff.)) I was careful to not sand too much. After sanding it looks
> as if there is even less material on the surface. There was enough. In
> fact, some of the Superfil seems to go into the surface of the cloth
fibers
> themselves giving you an overall harder surface.
>
> I applied four sprayed coats of UVSP and waited to see if I was going to
> get any differential settling that would show the pattern of the
composite
> cloth. ((The initial settling will show up in a week or so.))
>
> After a month, the surface has remained free of any settling that shows a
> cloth pattern,, indicating that the Superfil left me with a flat surface.
>
> Disadvantage - it is more work than rolling or spraying on six coats of
> UVSP.
>
> Advantage - I don't have to wait two months to be sure the UVSP has
> finished settling.

------------------------------------------
and another!
You can do it ! !   I have applied the Top Gloss using
> HVLP, high pressure, roller and brush. Forget roller and brush. High
> pressure system works better than the HVLP system for the old Top Gloss.
> This is how I painted my fuselage, tail surfaces and flaps ands ailerons.
I
> will be applying the new TopGloss in about a week to my wings and will
try
> it with both high pressure and HVLP systems and can give an opinion
then.
> Polyfiber says the new TopGloss sprays better with a high pressure system
> than a HVLP system. They also say it is a little thicker, so I want to
> determine which is best for myself.  All other things being equal, I
prefer
> a HVLP system. Less over spray hence fewer particles flying around the
> workshop and it uses 25-30% less paint.
>
> Problems - Only problem I have heard of is that if the Smooth Prime isn't
> given enough time to completely dry and settle, the weave pattern will
show
> up in the surface of your TopGloss when it does. How long has the Smooth
> Prime been on the plane??????????
>
> You must color sand and polish to get a good finish. After doing that,
the
> finish is deep and a water surface. Like a hand rubbed finish on a show
> car. But, you have to color sand and polish. I use a power palm sander
and
> power polisher and it goes quite well.
>
> To overcome the settling, Polyfiber says to put on the TopGloss, don't
> color sand and polish for about a month or two to give the Smooth Prome a
> chance to settle. They say to go fly off your 40 hours, then color sand
and
> polish. I prefer to let the Smooth Prime settle for a month or so before
> putting the Top Gloss on. What you  do, I guess, depends upon where you
are
> in the process. If you just put the Sandwich on, you probably don't want
to
> wait a month or so to do the final sanding and apply the TopGloss. If you
> follow their advise, put on an extra coat or so of TopGloss because in a
> couple months when you color sand to get the weave patptern out, you
will
> be removing some of the Top Gloss.
>
> Indecently, all primers and fillers settle, even the ones that are
solvent
> based. It doesn't make any difference what kind of top coat you use, or
who
> applied it, if the underlying materials settle into the weave, you will
see
> weave pattern in the surface of the paint. ((Even under a $5,000 paint
> job.))
>
> I recommend doing it yourself and the use of TopGloss. Saves a lot of
> money. You'll get a lot of satisfaction out of doing it yourself.  AND,
you
> will be one of the few who can say," I built it and I even painted it!".
>
> You can do it in your garage. You will want to be able to vent air from
> your garage because even with the HVLP system, you will get more
particles
> in the air than you will want to let settle on the finish. ((Although if
> you get a lot of particles settling on the paint, color sanding and
> polishing takes care of them.)) I used a painters respirator, the kind
that
> have two round filters on the side of the mask.
>
> To clear the air out of a windowless garage, I raised the garage door the
> height of my fans, I used two window fans, put them on one side of the
> door, blocked off the  center section and left an open area on the other
> side of the door as an input. The air came in one side, went around in a
> circle in  the garage and out the other side of the door. Worked fine.
>
> I wouldn't recommend painting outside unless the weather is hot, low
> humidity, there is no wind, and there is no dust or pollen in the air. If
> you find such a place, let me know, I want to move there. Some people
have
> built temporary tents outside out of 2X2s, covered the framework with
> plastic and stuck a fan or two in openings.
>

Hope the above helps.


Larry

Larry A. Capps   #829
Naperville, IL
capps@mediaone.net



From: alwick@juno.com
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 15:23:56 -0800
Subject: Re: COZY: Working with PolyFiber and Paint

I just completed painting my fuselage and most of my wings. Love this
stuff. Can't believe how good it looks, yet my little goof ups show as
you would expect.
The suggestions below appear right on. Except I had great luck w/o using
hvlp and no roller. 
Nice of you to share this info Larry.

-al

On Wed, 24 Nov 1999 23:10:25 -0600 "Capps Family" <capps@mediaone.net>
writes:
> To All,
> 
> I received this email via third party, I feel the group would be 
> interested
> in the topic.
> 
> READ ON:
> 
> One of the guys in our EAA chapter(Bernie Wilder) has "re-invented" 
> the
> painting process working with PolyFiber while painting his Pulsar.  
>
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

