Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:35:16 -0800 Subject: COZY: Low fuel indicator experiment detects water in fuel. From: alwick@juno.com (ok How) In response to queries regarding the low fuel indicators I have put into my cozy, I did the following experiment. I wired my hobby battery +12v to one lead of small light bulb I had lying around (12v bulb). The other bulb lead goes to the sender unit. (the sender is as big as the tip of your baby finger.) -12v goes to the outside case of the sender unit. Pretty straight fwd wiring. Only other component is a 1000 ohm resistor wired parallel to bulb leads. I figured I could use water instead of fuel to test circuit, since I didn't want to deal with fumes in house. VERY interesting effect. After applying power to circuit, the bulb slowly glows brighter, but it continued to indicate "low fuel" even when immersed in water. I tried a bunch of different things, but bulb always indicated "low fuel". Only if I blew air into the sender, would bulb slowly dim to off. So, the next day I used gasoline instead of water. Now the circuit behaves as expected. When sender is immersed, bulb dims to off. A few moments after removed from fuel the bulb glows "low fuel". Conclusions: If you place one of these cheap automobile low fuel senders at bottom of sump, it will glow "water in fuel tank" when water is present. If you also place one 4" above bottom of tank, it will glow "low fuel level". This is a real inexpensive way of reducing the likelihood of fuel starvation. We're talking about the number one cause for crashes. I got my senders from Mtn. Tech Subaru here in Oregon, but I'm sure you can get one at any wrecking yard. The sender wires are fed from the in-tank sender, thru the tank vent tube, and finally to bulb on dash (after exiting thru side of tank vent near top of turtleback). In this way there are no concerns about adding potential source for tank leaks. Please spread the word. Maybe John Denver would still be around if he had "low fuel" glowing on dash. -al wick From: lschuler@cellular.uscc.com Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 10:47:28 -0600 Subject: E-PANEL: COZY: Questions to builders Ed wrote: >snip >I am putting together a list of indicators that would be benificial to >have on a Cozy. What I am looking for is things that a pilot would want >to know before, during and after take-off that are basically an open or >closed situation. >snip Here's a couple: Sump tank less than full (for those of us that have them) Position lights Strobes Larry From: david010@earthlink.net Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:42:33 +0000 Subject: Re: COZY: Flight Testing Rego, re "One thing I have considered a must is a VSI. I'd been in a situation once where airspeed was good (although marginal)but power was on the low side...the VSI saved my day,..." Good point. I've been thinking about creating a simple AOA device for the same reason. I took off in a Cherokee some time back with the pitot tube glued shut by some small mud dabbers who had crawled up inside the tube. I made an appoach and landing using VSI, power, sound, and the seat of my pants...worked out OK. But a simple AOA gage would have been the cats meow. The optimum approach AOA can be easily established by comparing stall (mush speed in the Cozy), add 30% and check AOA indication. What ever that angle is, it will be good for any weight. (it would also be interesting to know what the AOA is in cruise) Now for the mechanics of an AOA gage. One could use a piece of string blowing back across a marked flat surface. But I've been thinking about something a bit more exotic, like taking my smart level apart and mounting the angle finder on an arm attached to shaft on a bearing running through the fuselage side to a wind vane. The LED indicator from the smart level could be mounted on the instrument panel. ...got to get my machine flying ASAP so I can play with some of these ideas... dd From: Jim Hocut Subject: COZY: RE: AOA indicator Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:47:42 -0500 The smart level uses gravity as an index (probably a weighted shaft). Better to use an indexed optical encoder, sometimes called an incremental encoder. Y'all are making it too complicated. I've been doing pre design work (i.e. sleeping on it) for an AOA (Angle Of Attack) indicator for quite some time. 1. Find a linear potentiometer with a long shaft. 2. Find a properly sized Al tube that has a good slip fit over the pot's shaft 3. Micro some foam to the tube and contour it to a good airfoil shape. 4. Glass the airfoil. Install a set screw (2 if you're paranoid). 5. Install on the side of the fuselage up front in undisturbed air. 6. You can use any number of indicating devices. A properly selected panel voltmeter would be a good start. Jim Hocut jhocut@mindspring.com From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:32:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: RE: AOA indicator Now that I know what an "Angle of Attack" indicator is, why bother with all the monkey business? The bottom lines on performance are as far as I am concerned with are take off distance (count runway lights), rate of climb (write down stop watch times), and cruise speed (airspeed and correct to TAS), and there are a few other speeds necessary for safe flight, but the first 3 are bottom lines to getting there quickest. Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 13:32:36 -0500 From: Rob Cherney Subject: Re: COZY: Flight Testing At 01:42 PM 2/13/98 +0000, david010@earthlink.net wrote: > Now for the mechanics of an AOA gage. One could use a piece of string >blowing back across a marked flat surface. But I've been thinking about >something a bit more exotic, like taking my smart level apart and >mounting the angle finder on an arm attached to shaft on a bearing >running through the fuselage side to a wind vane. The LED indicator >from the smart level could be mounted on the instrument panel. The smart level uses gravity as an index (probably a weighted shaft). Better to use an indexed optical encoder, sometimes called an incremental encoder. See http://www.hp.com/HP-COMP/motion/heds51x0.html for an example. This type counts pulses as a function of rotation relative to a fixed index. The pluses and the index are detected by a stationary optical detector. You must go past the index at least once, however, for the device to know position. In our application, the index would be set such that at some time early in the flight (or even during the preflight) the index position would be crossed. An alternative would be to use another, more sophisticated, type of encoder that senses without an index. This is a position encoder, and is usually made with an optical disk that is photographically printed with a code (a binary Gray code) that indicates shaft position. A ten-bit encoder would have about 0.35 degrees of resolution. The incremental types are relatively inexpensive. With a small PIC microprocessor and a display, the total cost for the electronics and the sensor should run less than $150. Then again, you could use that piece of string. Rob- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Robert Cherney Home Phone: (410)465-5598 | |Ellicott City, Maryland e-mail: cherney@home.com | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: david010@earthlink.net Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:40:32 +0000 Subject: Re: COZY: RE: AOA indicator Carl, re "Now that I know what an "Angle of Attack" indicator is, why bother with all the monkey business? The bottom lines on performance are...take off distance...rate of climb...cruise speed...and a few other speeds necessary for safe flight, but the first 3 are bottom lines to getting there quickest." All very true. The only compelling reason to have a simple AOA device is that it would provide a speed reference for landing should the ASI fail. My brain ROM is full of inflight experiences and I'm always thinking "..now if that should happen again.." (...once had the whiskey compass fail (the card seized) while IFR. No big big deal but I did find VFR conditions ASAP...am now thinking about a cheap electronic heading indicator found in so many new cars as a back up....also, GPS HSI would work well) Thanks to you guys for pointing out how the smart level works...saved me from needlessly destroying mine. The potentiometer(sp) and the optical gysmo ideas sound very feasible. Wayne Lanza could make one in an evening...otherwise a simple wind vane mounted on a shaft with a pointer on the inside referenced to zero with the fuselage level would probably work... about as complicated as a piece of string, but a bit more durable. The only down side would be protecting it from being abused at a fly in. dd From: Jim Hocut Subject: RE: COZY: AOA indicator Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:18:36 -0800 > The only compelling reason to have a simple AOA device is that > it would > provide a speed reference for landing should the ASI fail. > Actually, there's a bit more to it than that. Our normal practice of flying a certain speed for landing is actually aimed at setting us up at the proper angle of attack, only it's not very precise because we sometimes have a passenger, sometimes three passengers, sometimes full tanks, sometimes nearly empty tanks. By flying final a little faster when heavy, a little slower when light we're actually making a blind adjustment to get back to the optimum AOA for landing. Some of the "big boys" have AOA indicators and I'm told that they're great. > Wayne Lanza could make one in an evening... > I was halfway thinking about making an attempt to turn my ideas on an AOA indicator into a kit (if I ever get ambitious and feel that there is at least some small market for it). Thus, I would hope that the ideas I put forth yesterday are used for personal consumption only. Jim Hocut jhocut@mindspring.com Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:23:54 -0600 From: Darren DeLoach Subject: Re: COZY: RE: AOA indicator > The only compelling reason to have a simple AOA device is that it would >provide a speed reference for landing should the ASI fail. My brain ROM >is full of inflight experiences and I'm always thinking "..now if that >should happen again.." > If the ONLY reason you're considering such a device is fear of being unable to land properly with a failed ASI, then do what I did when I had this same fear: I spent about four hours over several lessons in an anirplane with a CFI with the ASI (and other assorted gauges) covered for the entire lessons, from power-up to shutdown, takeoffs and landings, during the time I was getting my tailwheel endorsement. It not only broke my bad habit of being a gauge-watcher instead using my senses to get proper clues about the airplane's speed, but completely eliminated the worry I had about failed ASIs. It also made getting a glider certificate a lot easier-- I was now used to using non-gauge-based clues about the state of the airplane. Like you, the fear I had came from an incident, in my case a pitot tube cover which didn't flip up during my student long cross-country. During the flight it eventually flipped, so I never had to face a landing without the ASI, but I fretted about the incident, until finally during my tailwheel work I asked my CFI to start covering gauges to break me of the problem. The most interesting outcome: my flying got a good bit better almost instantly! I'm a much smoother pilot now for having done the no-gauge training. And there's one less worry in my flying bag. Same reason I went on to get a glider rating, but that's a different story... I have found over time that any fears I bring to flying (and there have been many, at different stages) were only "curable" by seeking out specific training to address the specific root cause of the fear. The proper cure for this kind of fear is more training, not more gauges. -- Darren DeLoach http://www.deloach.com Chap. 6 From: david010@earthlink.net Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:04:24 +0000 Subject: Re: COZY: RE: AOA indicator Darren, Re "If the ONLY reason you're considering such a device is fear of being unable to land properly with a failed ASI, then do what I did when I had this same fear:" It's not fear, Darren, it's laziness. I like flying to be easy, fun, and with as little stress as possible. dd From: david010@earthlink.net Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:54:26 +0000 Subject: Re: COZY: AOA indicator Jim, re " Some of the "big boys" have AOA indicators and I'm told that they're great." They are. They're used for auto throttle speed control on CAT III approaches and work very well. The system knows what the optimum AOA is for approach and missed approach and will fly whatever speed is necessary to create the lift required for any given weight. (I think the numbers are VSO+30% for approach and VSO+20% for the miss.) The US Navy also uses AOA for carrier approaches. In the Cozy, there is an optimum AOA for max glide range. That would be a nifty bit of info to have if one had a flame out, say at 12,000 feet. dd From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:07:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: AOA indicator David writes With a range of around 25-30 miles from 12,000, Im not concrerned. Its the less than 4000 ft where you need all the help! Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:19:43 -0500 From: "Johnson, Phillip" Subject: COZY: RE:AOA Indicator Carl, re "Now that I know what an "Angle of Attack" indicator is, why bother with all the monkey business? The bottom lines on performance are...take off distance...rate of climb...cruise speed...and a few other speeds necessary for safe flight, but the first 3 are bottom lines to getting there quickest." The bottom line is that we should be flying, particularly at low speed, by the AOA not airspeed. The wing stall occurs as a function of AOA not airspeed so an accurate measure of AOA is the key to safe flight in most weight and balance and accelerated stall scenario's. The AOA provides you with all the information you need for low speed flight. The problem is that to measure AOA for the main wing it is necessary to measure it at the wing, not ahead of the wing, since the canard upsets the direction of the airflow. Father Rutan incorporated an AOA gauge on the Vari Viggen. I'm not sure how it worked or how successful it was. With the change in technology of the last decade it should be possible to create such a device on the leading edge of the wing by measuring the location of the stagnation point using some small pressure sensors. It is something that I have been thinking about over the last few years but I need to finish the bird first. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phillip Johnson Tel (613) 253 2229 (H) Ottawa, (613) 599 3289 ext. 441 or 232 Ontario, Cozy MKIV RG #30 Canada. Subaru EG33 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:51:04 -0500 From: Rob Cherney Subject: Re: COZY: RE:AOA Indicator At 05:19 PM 2/16/98 -0500, Johnson, Phillip wrote: >With >the change in technology of the last decade it should be possible to >create such a device on the leading edge of the wing by measuring the >location of the stagnation point using some small pressure sensors. It >is something that I have been thinking about over the last few years but >I need to finish the bird first. You could measure the difference in pressure from two ports above and below the stagnation point. Problem is, the differential pressure varies non-linearly with speed and angle of attack. It would take a lot of empirical in-flight or wind tunnel measurements to have enough information to pull this off. Even then, you'd need a traditional vane to know what the true AOA was. These problems (solutions?) seem to bear out the "laws of conservation of misery". Anyhoo, I need to concentrate on building, too. Excuse me while I get back to working on my elevators. Rob- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Robert Cherney Home Phone: (410)465-5598 | |Ellicott City, Maryland e-mail: cherney@home.com | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:04:57 +0200 From: Chris van Hoof Subject: COZY: AOA Hi All, during this discussion, it seems (to me) that an AOA indicator must be something only the real "pilots" use, and as my little experiences go... 1 - my ASI stopped working shortly after take off, being the lucky sort of fella, i had done some simulator IFR, the instructor had impressed on me that i should "know" my settings by heart and not rely on any of the insruments without verifying their status by comparing with the others...."lucky" i had just checked my "settings" and remembered them. RPM/ manifold pressure at altitude/etc. - "the more i practise, the luckier i get" (heard somewhere) 2 - my only engine out...after establishing best glide rate and all flaps etc set, i promise you my only reference was to the ASI while looking for a place to set down, that was from 2000' in a spamcan (flying manhole cover) maybe in my Cozy with 12 000' i would have time for a AOA. NO flaming intended, just all ,these things weigh something... happy building. Chris #219 From: WAV4176 Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 22:38:38 EST Subject: COZY: digital gauges, temp, volt, oil pressure Anyone intersted in do it yourself or kit electronic digital gauges for OAT, Battery volts, Oil pressure. If so, what type of indicator is preferred, LED (red, green, or yellow?) or LCD (reflective or backlight in red or green). I believe these can be built for less than $50 each. Size would be approximately 1.25" X 3". If enough intrest is there, I can get PCB ecthed and make a real neat panel mount gauge. Also, is anyone intrested in voice alert for alarm condition. Wendell Voto Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 10:28:11 -0500 From: bil kleb Subject: Re: COZY: digital gauges, temp, volt, oil pressure WAV4176 (?) wrote: > > Anyone intersted in do it yourself or kit electronic digital gauges i thought the conclusion that jim weir and the rutan brothers came to when designing gauges for voyager was that non-digital was the way to go; we tried newfangled computer chips, microprocessors and the latest in digital technology. what we wound up with were old-fashioned linear amplifiers and moving-coil meters. without going into a long song and dance about the problems encountered and solved, suffice it to say that humans like to see moving-pointer _meter_ presentation of data backed up with digital "idiot light" alarms for out-of-limit data. from "customize your instruments", kitplanes, pp 70-73, feb, 1988, available online at http://www.rst-engr.com/jwbib.html while you're there, pick up info on strobes, temperature gauges, capacitance fuel gauges, and more... -- bil From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:45:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: digital gauges, temp, volt, oil pressure Bill Kleb wrote I started out with analog engine gauges (stewart Warner), they were junk. I am on my 3rd Skysports analog fuel gauge. All my electronic - JPI slimline engine, EI Ultimate scanner, and even the fuel watch (except for the GPS interface) have been zero problems. The digital are more accurate (after 560 hours Sensenich checked my tach with their certified optical interface and the difference was 10-20 rpm. The engine gauges and scanner have redline warning lights, and a audible alarm is easily done. Analog (and I mean true instrument mechanical movements and not graphically simulation) require mechanical contacts, ugh. From: Lee Devlin Subject: Re: COZY: digital gauges, temp, volt, oil pressure Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 10:48:02 MST > > WAV4176 (?) wrote: > > > > Anyone intersted in do it yourself or kit electronic digital gauges > > i thought the conclusion that jim weir and the rutan brothers came to > when designing gauges for voyager was that non-digital was the way to go; > > we tried newfangled computer chips, microprocessors and > the latest in digital technology. what we wound up with > were old-fashioned linear amplifiers and moving-coil meters. > without going into a long song and dance about the problems > encountered and solved, suffice it to say that humans like > to see moving-pointer _meter_ presentation of data backed > up with digital "idiot light" alarms for out-of-limit data. > I do not concur with Jim on this issue. (I feel he's living in the past on several other issues too, including stereo intercoms, but that's another story.) Digital gauges do have a place in the cockpit. I agree that that analog gauges provide several other types of information that many digital gauges currently do not. Such as: - A minimum and maximum range for the gauge - Regions that can be color coded (yellow=caution, Green=normal, Red=out of limit) - Movement that's easier to detect and interpret if changing rapidly - Faster scan interpretation - Relative information via side-by-side bar graphs (like GEMs) However, smart digital gauges could easily provide all those functions or make them unnecessary. Digital gauges are _much_ better for providing fine resolution. Also, if you know what's normal for your plane, then the limit color encoding loses its significance. Personally, I would prefer digital displays (and some accompanied with audio alarms for out of limits) for the following information: OAT, CHT, EGT, Oil Pressure, Oil Temp, All speeds (IAS, TAS, GS), Tach, Votage, Current, Fuel quantity, Time, Headings.... Hmmm, come to think of it, I can't think of _any_ quantitative information in the cockpit which I would prefer to have in analog form. I'm not silly enough to suggest that an all digital cockpit without some non-electrical analog backup for basic instruments would be a good idea. Rutan may have been in accord with the Voyager approach at that time, but if you take the Boomerang as a recent example, it has only two engine instruments and they are both digital tachs! Flight instruments include a Rocky Mountain Encoder with a (nearly) all digital display. Lee Devlin LongEZ N36MX http://members.aol.com/lee810 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:33:16 -0800 Subject: Re: COZY: digital gauges, temp, volt, oil pressure From: alwick@juno.com (ok How) Of course you can go digital or analog. However, studies have been done which find that analog is substantially superior to digital as far as your ability to quickly analyse and identify significance of gage reading. You can prove this to yourself by drawing gages on piece of paper and then flash them to someone. Later ask them what they saw. You have good design when they can glance and ident trends. In my opinion this "quick read and understand" ability is a key to aircraft gages. My "gages" are both digital, analog, and pictorial. I've also taken them to the next step of using artificial intelligence to monitor the inputs. Which makes it immaterial which type of display you use. -al wick 71% comp. Cozy MkIV with stock Subaru 2.5 engine. Computerized cockpit. On Sun, 29 Mar 1998 10:28:11 -0500 bil kleb writes: >WAV4176 (?) wrote: >> >> Anyone intersted in do it yourself or kit electronic digital gauges > >i thought the conclusion that jim weir and the rutan brothers came to >when designing gauges for voyager was that non-digital was the way to >go; > > we tried newfangled computer chips, microprocessors and > the latest in digital technology. what we wound up with > were old-fashioned linear amplifiers and moving-coil meters. > without going into a long song and dance about the problems > encountered and solved, suffice it to say that humans like > to see moving-pointer _meter_ presentation of data backed > up with digital "idiot light" alarms for out-of-limit data. > >from "customize your instruments", kitplanes, pp 70-73, feb, 1988, >available online at http://www.rst-engr.com/jwbib.html > >while you're there, pick up info on strobes, temperature gauges, >capacitance fuel gauges, and more... > >-- >bil > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From: Epplin John A Subject: RE: COZY: digital gauges, temp, volt, oil pressure Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:55:40 -0600 I am going to add my .02 worth FWIW. I intend to go to digital for temps, volts, alternator load and maybe oil press. Main reason is using the small LCD panels sold by Scott Edwards. These can display 4 rows of 20 characters and are back lighted for night use. Also work in direct sunlight. I remember my first digital watch, I had to look at it 3 or more times to figure out what time it was. Old habits are hard to break. There is probably no better way than a bunch of analog gages properly oriented so the needles all point to the same direction for normal operation, one quick glance reads several instruments as long as they are all normal. If one goes to digital display, there should be some sort of alarm in addition to the digits. This could be tripped by rate of change long before the actual limit was reached, depends on how much smarts are in the logic driving the display. Another advantage to digital display implemented in the manner I plan is that the wiring becomes much less of a problem. Put the Analog to digital process just inside the firewall and format the display there with a small micro controller and send the entire display on one pair of wires to the Scott Edwards display units. Much less wire especially thermocouple wire for EGT and CHT stuff. John epplin Mk4 #467 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:03:58 -0500 Subject: COZY: Re: Rocky mountain kit From: mikefly@juno.com (Michael B Bowden) On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:26:29 +0200 Guy TERREN writes: >Hi, >Could you give me some details about this kit >Thanks > >Guy > Rocky Mountain Instruments P.O. Box 683 202 Fremont St. Thermopolis, Wyoming 82443 Phone 307-864-9300 Micro Encoder kit is very organized and the instruction manuals are easy to follow and have large print. Check off method reminds me of the Heath Kits I used to build. When mine was finished, there were a couple of minor glitches which they responded to and corrected very quickly. I haven't been able to find an invoice but I believe the price was around $850. You can buy it pre built for about $1150 Not bad considering all you get. The encoder is legal after set up and completion of a transponder / encoder check. Although airspeed & altitude functions are included. the Micro Encoder should only replace the VSI in IFR installations. VSI's are not required for IFR and the Micro Encoder has one built in anyway. A Sport Aviation issue after Burt's Boomerang debut featured a picture of the panel that had not much more than a Micro Encoder on it. Hope this is usefull. Mike _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:22:36 -0700 From: Eric Westland Subject: COZY: AV-10 Engine Monitor? Anyone have any experience good or bad with the AV-10 engine monitor? They have a website at http://www.rose.com/~afa/ and were at SNF, but I missed them somehow. It looks like for about the same amount of money( with probes/fuel monitor), they can do what the Rocky Mountain MicroMonitor can, but it scans EGT/CHT. Did anyone get a "show price" for this unit at SNF that they can share with me? If anyone is going still, they are in the "C" building, booth 61. Thanks, Eric From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:07:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: AV-10 Engine Monitor? Eric Westland writes The display appears to be LCD. LCD's are notorious for readability under certain lighting conditions, in particular when viewed at anything but straight on. I have an Electronics International Ultimate scanner that is mounted low right on the panel, and it is hard to read, otherwise the functionality is excellent. At Sun N Fun I looked at a JPI unit with a gas plasma display that was readable at a wide angle. I didn't study its functionality in depth, but if I was buying today, I would take a second look. I have the JPI slimline (LED) engine instruments and they are ALWAYS readable, bright sunlight or night, auto dimming. Electronics International and JPI have always treated me fine. Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 21:03:19 -0700 From: Eric Westland Subject: COZY: AV-10 Engine Monitor Qty. Purchase? In trying to figure out which engine monitor to purchase, I have settled on the AV 10. It scans just about anything you want and is competitively priced. In addition, it's a two piece unit, so the computer part of it can go on your firewall with a single cable (about the size of a printer cable) running up to the display unit at the instrument panel. Complete information (including a Sport Aviation re-print) on the unit can be found at the AFA web site http://www.rose.com/~afa/ I'm not selling these, but I am going to buy one. I talked with the owner, Rod, this morning and he is willing to offer a 20% discount on the sale of 5 units. He is not advertising this, I found out he had done it earlier when he was just getting started - I am not sure it is something he will repeat in the future as he is now selling plenty of these without a discount. Therefore, if I order the AV 10 ($1300 w/egt/cht probes), Fuel Flow option ($250) and a fuel pressure sending unit ($60), I (you) would pay $1288 instead of $1610. Not that you have to configure/order yours the same way as mine, but if I can get 4 other people, all of us could save 20% on whatever we ordered. You would be sending money to AFA, not me. I'm just doing the legwork to try to save 5 people (including myself) some money. Since the warranty does not start until you start flying, there is no penalty for "buying early". Please e-mail me privately soon if you are interested. Eric Westland Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 07:27:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "C. W. Wright" Subject: COZY: Re: laptop instrument panel > Is anyone aware of the hardware and software needed to instrument an EZ > this way? I'm working on electronic instruments for my long right now. I'm using a couple of VFD ( Vacuum Fluoro. Display; the bright green kind) for engine instrumentation. I'm using the Microchip 16c74a to digitize RPM, Oil press, Oil temp, canopy latch, gear lock, volts, amps, OAT, 4x CHT, 4x EGT, Gear leg Temp, audio warnings etc. etc. ...... Much of my motivation is to eliminate wire from the plane and locate the micro-digitizer back near the engine so the sensor wires will be very short. The output data ( serial rs-232 ) will be sent to the cockpit on one small cable. I'm not attempting flight instruments such as altimeters, vsi, or gyros at this point. I'm willing to share the software and hardware circuits with anyone seriously interested, and experienced with this sort of thing, in working on such a project. I'm now committed because I've removed all the old analog stuff ( and wire) from my plane. Safe Flights! C. Wayne Wright wright@canard.com Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 20:29:35 -0500 From: Mike Davis Subject: COZY: laptop instrument panel Burt's Boomerang is instumented with a laptop computer instead of the conventional instruments. If my memory isn't fogged in, I believe it has a couple of the basics (airspeed and compass).I also understand that Burt's son wrote the software for the Macintosh. My questions are: Is anyone aware of the hardware and software needed to instrument an EZ this way? Is the software and hardware on the market? Thanks in advance for any insight. Mike Cozy N141MD Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 19:23:29 -0700 From: "LCDR James D. Newman" Subject: COZY: Re: Laptop instrument panel Hi Mike and All, > Mike Davis wrote: > Burt's Boomerang is instrumented with a laptop computer instead of the conventional instruments. If my memory isn't fogged in, I believe it has a couple of the basics (airspeed and compass).I also understand that Burt's son wrote the software for the Macintosh. > My questions are: Is anyone aware of the hardware and software needed to instrument an EZ this way? Is the software and hardware on the market? Check out http://www.sierraflightsystems.com Infinity's Forever, JD From: Lee810@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:10:51 EDT Subject: Re: COZY: laptop instrument panel In a message dated 10/5/98 7:27:27 PM Mountain Daylight Time, flyboy@creative- net.net writes: > My questions are: > Is anyone aware of the hardware and software needed to instrument an EZ > this way? Dave LaFave currently has one of these under development. He was showing it in his LongEZ at Oshkosh this year and expects to have it available for sale soon. You can see a short article about it in this month's (Oct '98) Central States Newsletter. You can also see it at: The main page currently has a broken link to a .gif, but just go into 'Click here to Enter' and you will get a nice description of it with examples of displays, costs, etc. The cost is $875 for the data collection unit and Windows software to run it. Sensors and notebook computer are extra. Lee Devlin LongEZ N36MX Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 08:18:54 -0400 From: Paul Krasa Subject: Re: COZY: laptop instrument panel At 20:29 10/5/98 -0500, Mike Davis wrote: >Burt's Boomerang is instumented with a laptop computer instead of the >conventional instruments. If my memory isn't fogged in, I believe it >has a couple of the basics (airspeed and compass).I also understand that >Burt's son wrote the software for the Macintosh. > >My questions are: >Is anyone aware of the hardware and software needed to instrument an EZ >this way? >Is the software and hardware on the market? > >Thanks in advance for any insight. > >Mike >Cozy N141MD > > At Oshkosh this year there was a Long EZ with a Laptop for a panel. No instruments of any kind that I could see except the flat panel. Unfortunetly, I did not write down the tail number. Paul Long EZ 214LP From: "Todd" Subject: COZY: Re: [canard-aviators] laptop instrument panel Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:44:15 -0400 I've put together a system that I plan to use in my Vari-Eze. As of now it monitors and displays engine information but I'm working on airspeed and altitude. Currently my 32 bit software runs only on Win95 or Windows NT but I have plans to port the software to run on Windows CE (palmtops). (The software is the EZ part !) I was surprised how truly inexpensive it was to put this together. I have considered offering the package for sale (if there is enough interest). The hardware could be offered as a kit or pre-built. I hesitate to say exactly how much it would cost but I will say it would be a SMALL fraction of what the Archangel system costs. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Davis To: cozy_builders@canard.com Cc: canard-aviators@canard.com Date: Monday, October 05, 1998 11:39 PM Subject: [canard-aviators] laptop instrument panel >[The Canard Aviators's Mailing list] > >Burt's Boomerang is instrumented with a laptop computer instead of the >conventional instruments. If my memory isn't fogged in, I believe it >has a couple of the basics (airspeed and compass).I also understand that >Burt's son wrote the software for the Macintosh. > >My questions are: >Is anyone aware of the hardware and software needed to instrument an EZ >this way? >Is the software and hardware on the market? > >Thanks in advance for any insight. > >Mike >Cozy N141MD > > \ >->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-|- > / >For details on sponsors of this list, copyrights, and how to remove >yourself from this list, please visit: > >http://www.canard.com/ca-ending.html > >(c) 1997,1998 Canard Aviators. support@canard.com > / > -|-<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > \ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 16:11:25 +0100 From: Jean-Jacques CLAUS Subject: Re: COZY: laptop instrument panel Mike Davis wrote: > My questions are: > Is anyone aware of the hardware and software needed to instrument an EZ > this way? > Is the software and hardware on the market? > Mike and all, You can see a computerized panel at http://www.archangel.com/. Jean-Jacques CLAUS http://www.mygale.org/05/jclaus Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 08:56:21 -0700 From: D or M Uhlmeyer Subject: COZY: Re: [canard-aviators] laptop instrument panel At one time there was an argument as to whether a wrist watch was a legal clock for IFR approaches. Has any one asked the FAA if a highly portable instrument panel would be acceptable? Mike Davis wrote: > [The Canard Aviators's Mailing list] > > Burt's Boomerang is instrumented with a laptop computer instead of the > conventional instruments. If my memory isn't fogged in, I believe it > has a couple of the basics (airspeed and compass).I also understand that > Burt's son wrote the software for the Macintosh. > > My questions are: > Is anyone aware of the hardware and software needed to instrument an EZ > this way? > Is the software and hardware on the market? > > Thanks in advance for any insight. > > Mike > Cozy N141MD > > \ > ->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-|- > / > For details on sponsors of this list, copyrights, and how to remove > yourself from this list, please visit: > > http://www.canard.com/ca-ending.html > > (c) 1997,1998 Canard Aviators. support@canard.com > / > -|-<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > \ From: Epplin John A Subject: RE: COZY: Re: [canard-aviators] laptop instrument panel Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:26:26 -0500 Someone came in to our shop with a really neat solid-state gyro device. Supposedly it is used on aircraft carriers as an antenna stabilization device, among other military applications. The heart of the thing is in a cube less than 3 inches on a side, uses less than half amp of electricity at 12 volts, outputs roll and pitch as well as optional heading info on a RS232 interface. The price was not too bad either. I asked if it had a TSO number, got back a blank stare. I believe as long as your into IFR your primary instruments must conform to some TSO spec. Any other devices over and above the minimum required should not need to. What this means is that if you want to use some of the really neat things that are appearing you will have to install the old standby stuff as well. May not be a bad idea, just costs more and could be confusing. Personally, I intend to install proven and approved instruments for my primary flight instruments, then experiment with the new stuff based on PC technology. Who knows, I wont live long enough to try all the ideas I have heard about. John epplin Mk4 #467 > -----Original Message----- > From: D or M Uhlmeyer [SMTP:merryowl@uswest.net] > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 10:56 AM > To: Mike Davis > Cc: cozy_builders@canard.com; canard-aviators@canard.com > Subject: COZY: Re: [canard-aviators] laptop instrument panel > > At one time there was an argument as to whether a wrist watch was a legal > clock for IFR approaches. Has any one asked the FAA if a highly portable > instrument panel would be acceptable? > > Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 20:05:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "C. W. Wright" Subject: Re: COZY: solid-state gyro device > I wonder if there is a way. To use the sensing from the Gyros that are > used in Model helicopters... these gems are only 1x1x1 inch.... and run for > years.... taking the outputs that control the Servos might Be used for the > on the laptop software some of you guys are developing???? They are piezoelectric gyros and work on the same principals as a tuning fork I'm told. I rented a very expensive (10k purchase) one abt two years ago. It had a Boeing gyro inside and was designed for use on UAVs. It was more than a gyro, as it has accels. compass, and a microcomputer inside. I had it mounted directly on top of a Litton-92 Laser Gyro Inertial Naviation Unit and we went flying. We did climbs, descents, turns, accel, deccel, 720 turns, turns to card. headings, dutch rolls, and anything else I could think of to compare the little guy with the INS. The results were terrible. In any bank above a few degrees, the bank angle error woould grow rapidly ( seconds) and not recover until we wer level again for several seconds. According the people that know abt these gyros, they are "Rate gyros" and they have a quite high drift rate. The unit tested attempted to use the accels. to determine the bank angle for low bank angles, and only resorted to the rate gyros when the "G" data dictated. In any event, they are pretty bad for attitude determination and I mean big errors ( 10's of degrees ) with normal banks of 20 30 or 45 degrees. I did the test flight on an F-27 we have at work. :-) Wayne Wright Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 22:17:43 -0400 From: Phillip Subject: COZY: laptop instrument panel Jean-Jacques CLAUS writes: >You can see a computerized panel at http://www.archangel.com/ Some of you may have seen the Archangel products at Sun N Fun or Oshkosh or even in some aviation publications. I am seriously considering putting this equipment in the Cozy I am starting to build and was fortunate enough to visit the Archangel offices in Auburn, Alabama and was given the nickel tour. I was very impressed with both the EFIS and their Cabin Display System (Moving Map Display).......though it is not cheap. Now for my first quetions: 1. Has anyone made their Instrument panel bulkhead with plans to use the Archangel equipment? 2. If so, did you change the size and/or location of the ribs (stiffners) to accomidate the size of the Displays? (It appears that I would have to lengthen/enlarge the bottom of the panel.. above the legs...about an inch and a half) Phillip Sill, #707 Chapter 4 Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:08:14 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: laptop instrument panel From: alwick@juno.com (ok How) On Tue, 6 Oct 1998 22:17:43 -0400 Phillip writes: > >Jean-Jacques CLAUS writes: > SNIP > 2. If so, did you change the size and/or location of the ribs >(stiffners) to accomidate the size of the Displays? > (It appears that I would have to lengthen/enlarge the bottom of the >panel.. above the legs...about an inch and a half) > > >Phillip Sill, #707 >Chapter 4 > > Phillip, I would not recommend making the opening for legs smaller than it is now. It's tough to get legs in cockpit with stock opening. -al wick 85% comp. Cozy MkIV sn 389 with stock Subaru 2.5 engine. Computerized cockpit. Done building components. Expect completion date 4-30-99. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From: ABianconi Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:09:21 +0000 Subject: COZY: solid-state gyro device > Someone came in to our shop with a really neat solid-state gyro device. > Supposedly it is used on aircraft carriers as an antenna stabilization > device, among other military applications. The heart of the thing is in > a cube less than 3 inches on a side, uses less than half amp of > electricity at 12 volts, outputs roll and pitch as well as optional > heading info on a RS232 interface. The price was not too bad either. It must be years since an electronics manufacturer figured out as way to make a turn & bank indicator using the same sensing device used in air to air missles in lieu of gyro stablization. I first saw it at Oshkosh about 8 or 10 years ago, I think. Extremely light and with back up power from a 9VDC battery, it was the lightest I'd ever seen. It did NOT however have a cube like the one you portrayed. Except for the battery box, the back of the instrument was almost flat. Instead of a meter movement or pointer, it had LED's stacked in a row at the "equator". The LED's would light up and the position of the light bar would tell you what you needed to know. A conventional ball-in-oil gave you the usual rudder input data. The device measured acceleration in 2 axis by using two sensors. Wish I could tell you more. Regards From: "neal newman" Subject: Re: COZY: solid-state gyro device Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:55:25 -0400 Here is a thought.. Its all experimental Right.... I wonder if there is a way. To use the sensing from the Gyros that are used in Model helicopters... these gems are only 1x1x1 inch.... and run for years.... taking the outputs that control the Servos might Be used for the on the laptop software some of you guys are developing???? Hey its only a thought....... Neal Newman -----Original Message----- From: ABianconi To: Epplin John A Cc: cozy_builders@canard.com ; canard-aviators@canard.com Date: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 3:16 PM Subject: COZY: solid-state gyro device > Someone came in to our shop with a really neat solid-state gyro device. > Supposedly it is used on aircraft carriers as an antenna stabilization > device, among other military applications. The heart of the thing is in > a cube less than 3 inches on a side, uses less than half amp of > electricity at 12 volts, outputs roll and pitch as well as optional > heading info on a RS232 interface. The price was not too bad either. It must be years since an electronics manufacturer figured out as way to make a turn & bank indicator using the same sensing device used in air to air missles in lieu of gyro stablization. I first saw it at Oshkosh about 8 or 10 years ago, I think. Extremely light and with back up power from a 9VDC battery, it was the lightest I'd ever seen. It did NOT however have a cube like the one you portrayed. Except for the battery box, the back of the instrument was almost flat. Instead of a meter movement or pointer, it had LED's stacked in a row at the "equator". The LED's would light up and the position of the light bar would tell you what you needed to know. A conventional ball-in-oil gave you the usual rudder input data. The device measured acceleration in 2 axis by using two sensors. Wish I could tell you more. Regards Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:53:56 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: laptop instrument panel From: alwick@juno.com (ok How) On Mon, 05 Oct 1998 20:29:35 -0500 Mike Davis writes: >Burt's Boomerang is instrumented with a laptop computer instead of the >conventional instruments. If my memory isn't fogged in, I believe it >has a couple of the basics (airspeed and compass).I also understand that >Burt's son wrote the software for the Macintosh. > >My questions are: >Is anyone aware of the hardware and software needed to instrument an EZ >this way? As I recall, Burt elected to use an Allen Bradley Plc to interface to the sensors. There are a number of options you have for a hardware interface. Don't have to use same stuff he did. All can be accomplished w/o special wiring or custom hardware. It's quite easy to do. Easier than wiring a normal instrument panel I believe. I can only assume Burt's brother wasn't up to speed with latest software. Absolutely no reason to generate custom sw. Writing your own is fun though. Perhaps that's why he went that direction. >Is the software and hardware on the market? You bet. You can buy both off the shelf and you don't need (nor want) to use a Mac for your display. I developed my laptop sys over 5 years ago. Am shocked that there is still nothing marketed that makes use of the tremendous power of these type systems. I assume few are aware of the potential. Fewer yet aware of how inexpensively it can be accomplished. Be happy to show you my sys next year ( I hope) when I'm flying. -al wick 85% comp. Cozy MkIV sn 389 with stock Subaru 2.5 engine. Computerized cockpit. Done building components. Expect completion date 4-30-99. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 18:13:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Boultinghouse Subject: Re: COZY: solid-state gyro device Neal, It's a thought that I had too, but was too shy to post it to the group. I flew RC choppers before the piezo gyros were available and had a "regular" motorized gyro. Even the "old style" was about 2" square and only consumed about 50mah at 4.8v. I'm just amazed at how small, light and current-efficient the new piezo versions are. I don't think it would take much effort to convert the output into something meaningful. Of course you'd need at least two of them since they are single-axis devices. If you can consider a piezo gyro as having an "axis". [grin] Regards, Chris Boultinghouse Austin, TX Just got the Cozy info pack yesterday! ---neal newman wrote: > > Here is a thought.. Its all experimental Right.... > I wonder if there is a way. To use the sensing from the Gyros that are > used in Model helicopters... these gems are only 1x1x1 inch.... and run for > years.... taking the outputs that control the Servos might Be used for the > on the laptop software some of you guys are developing???? > > Hey its only a thought....... > > Neal Newman == Regards, Chris Boultinghouse Austin, TX _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: "Eddie Bryant" Subject: Re: COZY: laptop instrument panel Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:42:36 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Mike Davis To: cozy_builders@canard.com Cc: canard-aviators@canard.com Date: Monday, October 05, 1998 8:55 PM Subject: COZY: laptop instrument panel >snip> >My questions are: >Is anyone aware of the hardware and software needed to instrument an EZ >this way? >Is the software and hardware on the market? > >Thanks in advance for any insight. > >Mike >Cozy N141MD > There was a yellow Lancair 320 in "Kitplanes" probably two years ago...(or more)..magazine time syndrome... The builder was a computer science teacher at a California college. He had multi-functional displays (MFD) for engine parameters, angle-of-attack info, opto-isolated wiring from p-leads in case computer grounded out...eventually said he caught the interest of Arnav systems and was more-or-less alpha/beta testing for them....do any of you recall this? (It seems the wheel, or parts of it, keeps getting reinvented....) Regards, Eddie Bryant MKIV610 Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 01:13:07 -0400 From: Phillip Subject: Re: COZY: laptop instrument panel gdwinal@exploremaine.com ......writes: >Did you get pricing on this set-up? The way I understand it will cost you about fifty grand to put this system in your bird! The price for the Archangel EFIS unit is about $21,000 (plus individual probs....maybe another $1500). The price for the CDU(moving map) is about $11,000. I am not sure about what it would cost to install the units. The "touch-screen" operation of these units works great. If you go to the Archangel Website (http://www.archangel.com) you can get their email address and request an info pack. The information includes actual size photos. Phillip Sill, COZY MKIV #707 Chapter 4 From: Epplin John A Subject: RE: COZY: solid-state gyro device Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:41:51 -0500 Neal & all I had my hands on one of these about 6 months ago. Connected it to some data acquisition equipment we have here. Was really disappointed in the performance of the device. It is a rate sensor, coralias (sp) effect device using piezo elements. The drift with temp was more than the usable signal. I tried to program a simple algorithm to integrate the output, which should produce displacement data, ;in whichever axis the unit is mounted. I did not spend a lot of time as it seemed to be inadequate for the job. In the model helo things happen fairly quickly and the pilot is really in control, guess you would call this a stability augmentation device. Would work for that. John epplin.. Mk4 #467 > -----Original Message----- > From: neal newman [SMTP:groucho@pluto.skyweb.net] > Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 6:55 PM > To: ABianconi; Epplin John A > Cc: cozy_builders@canard.com; canard-aviators@canard.com > Subject: Re: COZY: solid-state gyro device > > Here is a thought.. Its all experimental Right.... > I wonder if there is a way. To use the sensing from the Gyros that are > used in Model helicopters... these gems are only 1x1x1 inch.... and run > for > years.... taking the outputs that control the Servos might Be used for > the > on the laptop software some of you guys are developing???? > > Hey its only a thought....... > > Neal Newman > Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:27:21 -0400 From: John Millington Subject: Re: COZY: laptop instrument panel ok How wrote: > On Mon, 05 Oct 1998 20:29:35 -0500 Mike Davis > writes: > >Burt's Boomerang is instrumented with a laptop computer instead of the > >conventional instruments. If my memory isn't fogged in, I believe it > >has a couple of the basics (airspeed and compass).I also understand that > .............. I am planning on putting together an interactive flat-screen display system for the engine instruments in my MK IV. Since I am only half-way through chapter 4, I have plenty of time to consider my options. I plan on having a full set of 2 1/4" instruments in the panel to ensure that I properly can set up the engine cooling, and rely on "store bought" engine instruments. Alongside of these instruments I am putting together a '386 based, single board computer that can load software written and saved to internal RAM based "hardware disk". This means that I don't have any moving parts in the system like a hard-drive. I plan on utilizing the existing sender units that feed the store bought instruments, by sampling the signals from these senders with small single board Analog I/O boards connected by ribbon cable to the '386 SBC and another ribbon cable to the COLOR, LCD Flat-panel Display. I want to display engine information in a way similar to that black and white LCD engine instrument that is on the market. I plan on writing the program in QuickBasic 4.5. The only reason that I chose this particular Language is because I have extensive experience writing in this language and the task at hand is not a particularly "number-crunching" or "processor-intensive" program. The I/O board does most of the number crunching and calculating. The '386 is used simply for monitoring eight to ten "input" values, and then displaying these representative values in the most graphicly clear manner, on the CRT. There are no needs for any large memories or any speeds or processors faster than a cheap '386 single board computer. They are considered "old" technology, but are very well tested and are incredibly cheap. CHEAP. The whole reason that I decided to write this (way too long) letter is that I think that done correctly, experimenting with a virtual system could be extremely safe as well as who knows, If it works as nicely as I hope, There is no reason not to experiment with going as far as trying to display flight information in new and maybe even safer ways. I did say this stuff is cheap. I found all of the components that I talked about above, in this months issue of Electronics Now magazine. There are many companies with ads selling all kinds of usefull stuff for this. J.Austin Millington Cozy MK-0706 Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:27:50 -0400 From: Paul Krasa Subject: Re: COZY: laptop instrument panel Okay, I guess it is time for me to jump into this discussion. In approximately three years, the AGATE consortium will have available two flat panel displays which will revolutionize the way we fly airplanes. The panels are a low cost Primary Flight Display (PFD) which will replace your standard six instruments and a low cost Multifunction Display (MFD) which will have a moving map, traffic data, engine parameters, datalink weather, radio functions, etc. So lets talk about the future. General Aviation is on the brink of a revelation driven by the digital bandwidth and all the current paradigms are changing. VHF Datalink radios were on sale at OSH this year. These radios will facilitate new technologies into the cockpit at prices comparable or lower than the equipment being replaced. In the next few years acronyms such as ADS-B (Automatic Data Surveillance Broadcast), VDL-II/III (VHF Datalink Mode Two or Mode Three), CPDLC (Controller Pilot Datalink Controller), and DGPS (Differential Global Positioning System)will be part of every pilots vocabulary. So what does all this mean. In my opinion, if you are years away from integrating avionics and your electrical system, wait to purchase your equipment until the last minute. If you don't, you will end up in the situation that many builders faced when they bought a Loran, and now GPS is the way to go. I applaud all who are want to integrate a laptop into the aircraft. In the near future, the laptop in combination with the digital radio will bring alot more useful information into the cockpit. Want to know the wx at your destination airport. Punch in a few keys and up comes the latest METAR, TAFS, and NEXRAD. In the future, the laptop will be the homebuilders MFD, and eventually we will be able to plug small cards into our notebook computers which will be our radios. You can already by a GPS on a PCMCIA card for your laptop. Paul Krasa Long EZ 214LP At 20:42 10/7/98 -0500, Eddie Bryant wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mike Davis >To: cozy_builders@canard.com >Cc: canard-aviators@canard.com >Date: Monday, October 05, 1998 8:55 PM >Subject: COZY: laptop instrument panel > > >>snip> >>My questions are: >>Is anyone aware of the hardware and software needed to instrument an EZ >>this way? >>Is the software and hardware on the market? >> >>Thanks in advance for any insight. >> >>Mike >>Cozy N141MD >> >There was a yellow Lancair 320 in "Kitplanes" probably two years ago...(or >more)..magazine time syndrome... The builder was a computer science teacher >at a California college. He had multi-functional displays (MFD) for engine >parameters, angle-of-attack info, opto-isolated wiring from p-leads in case >computer grounded out...eventually said he caught the interest of Arnav >systems and was more-or-less alpha/beta testing for them....do any of you >recall this? (It seems the wheel, or parts of it, keeps getting >reinvented....) > >Regards, >Eddie Bryant >MKIV610 > > > Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:31:42 -0500 From: Tom Brusehaver Subject: Re: COZY: solid-state gyro device > Here is a thought.. Its all experimental Right.... > I wonder if there is a way. To use the sensing from the Gyros that are >used in Model helicopters... these gems are only 1x1x1 inch.... and run for >years.... taking the outputs that control the Servos might Be used for the >on the laptop software some of you guys are developing???? There are a couple people using these in robots, or trying to. They precess pretty bad, tho. They are rate gyros, like the rate of turn indicator. The output is a pulse who's width varies depending on the rate of change. The Basic Stamp (one chip microcontroller), has a command that can monitor this nicely, and probably could convert things to rs-232 (pulsin, and serout). From: lschuler@cellular.uscc.com Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:40:42 -0600 Subject: Re: COZY: solid-state gyro device >It must be years since an electronics manufacturer figured out as way to >make a turn & bank indicator using the same sensing device used in air >to air missles in lieu of gyro stablization. I first saw it at Oshkosh >about 8 or 10 years ago, I think. I remeber same unit. Used basic Coriolis angular rate sensors, but their weakness was no drift (which coriolis units do a lot of) or temperature compensation. They wanted something like $800.00 for it. Their literature went into the circular file, so all I have is memory (which also seems to drift excessively). Larry From: lschuler@cellular.uscc.com Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:13:59 -0600 Subject: Re: COZY: solid-state gyro device >It must be years since an electronics manufacturer figured out as way to >make a turn & bank indicator using the same sensing device used in air >to air missles in lieu of gyro stablization. I first saw it at Oshkosh >about 8 or 10 years ago, I think. I remeber same unit. Used basic Coriolis angular rate sensors. Their weakness was no drift (which coriolis units do a lot of), acceleration, or temperature compensation. They wanted something like $800.00 for it. Their literature went into the circular file, so all I have is memory (which also seems to drift excessively). The Crossbow unit appears to be much more robust and highly compensated; FWW. Haven't seen the price yet. Wasn't Billy Mitchell the first one to do a totally instrument flight (under a hood) from takeoff through landing? About all he had was a compass, air speed, altimiter and a turn and bank indicator. Lots of folks said he was a fool back then, but we take instrument flight for granted today. Just thinking about that makes me think I have a choice to either live in the past (cause we've always done it that way), or to live in the present (which includes palmtop computing power that would have filled a building a few decades ago). Seems the older I get, the more difficult it is to wean me off the security blankets I've collected. Mechanical Gyro's is one of them. Larry Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 16:17:18 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: COZY: solid-state gyro device >I had my hands on one of these about 6 months ago. Connected it to some >data acquisition equipment we have here. Was really disappointed in the >performance of the device. It is a rate sensor, coralias (sp) effect device >using piezo elements. The drift with temp was more than the usable signal. >I tried to program a simple algorithm to integrate the output, which should >produce displacement data, ;in whichever axis the unit is mounted. I did >not spend a lot of time as it seemed to be inadequate for the job. In the >model helo things happen fairly quickly and the pilot is really in control, >guess you would call this a stability augmentation device. Would work for >that. FYI . . . Crossbow and Humphry have both demonstrated solid state 3 axis gyros to us at the Missiles Division at Raytheon Aircraft. I'm writing an IR&D proposal to use one of these products in a hardware-in-the-loop simulation for one of our targets. The current pricing for them is right in line with 3 axis of iron gyros (about $7k per ship set). They're getting better all the the time and I'm almost certain that we'll be able to one of these products in our next generation of AQM-37 supersonic target. The fully aerobatic MQM target will be next. Should have some interesting facts to share in about 6 months if I can get the grant. Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:51:02 -0600 From: Dave Chapman Subject: Re: COZY: laptop instrument panel al wick wrote..... >>Is the software and hardware on the market? >You bet. You can buy both off the shelf and you don't need (nor want) to >use a Mac for your display. I have to ask, why not mac? Moving map software and GPS interface units are available for the mac. I admit that I am a mac zealot and really love the stability of the OS and would want to have as stable a system as possible when the ability to stop in mid-air and reboot is not an option..... Perhaps this is why Burt used a mac..... Note: This is a real question and not a desire to enter into a windows/mac debate. Dave Dave Chapman (Pilot@xmission.com) "This is USHGA #5742 a spiritual calling to Park City, Utah set one's soul free by flight...." http://www.xmission.com/~pilot Cozy 3 on gear, with the engine on, in other words, 80% done and 80% to go... ***************************************************************************** The box said 'Requires Windows 98, or better.' So I bought a Macintosh. ***************************************************************************** From: "Marko Bewersdorff" Subject: Re: [canard-aviators] Re: COZY: solid-state gyro device Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:35:16 -0700 I am playing a bit with the piezzo model and regular model gyro and found out that the spring in the mechanical gyro was too strong: on my desk (only place this thing so far operated) I could tilt the gyro slowly without getting any output out of it, so I made the spring lighter. The solid state one I found had no sensitivity adjustment for the endlooser and hence only sitts on the shelf right now. if you want to take a peek: http://www.bewersdorff.com/EZ/electronics/ re Marko -----Original Message----- From: Chris Boultinghouse To: canard-aviators@canard.com ; cozy_builders@canard.com Date: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 7:29 PM Subject: [canard-aviators] Re: COZY: solid-state gyro device Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:55:43 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: laptop instrument panel From: alwick@juno.com (ok How) On Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:51:02 -0600 Dave Chapman writes: >al wick wrote..... > >>>Is the software and hardware on the market? > >>You bet. You can buy both off the shelf and you don't need (nor want) to >>use a Mac for your display. > >I have to ask, why not mac? Moving map software and GPS interface units >are available for the mac. I admit that I am a mac zealot and really love >the stability of the OS and would want to have as stable a system as >possible when the ability to stop in mid-air and reboot is not an >option..... Perhaps this is why Burt used a mac..... > >Note: This is a real question and not a desire to enter into a >windows/mac >debate. > >Dave > The question was " is there software and hardware available....". Software developers put efforts on systems that have high use. As time goes on, Macs have smaller and smaller percent of market. Mac increases risk of your not finding off the shelf software for these types of low volume special applications. If you're into Macs, go for it! There's alway a way to accomplish the task. -al ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:27:10 -0500 From: Tom Brusehaver Subject: Re: COZY: laptop instrument panel >goes on, Macs have smaller and smaller percent of market. Mac increases >risk of your not finding off the shelf software for these types of low >volume special applications. This is a very ignorant statement. The Mac sales are increasing. You gotta watch numbers tho. M$ will keep telling us there is a larger maket share in win32 PC's but they still count the ones in the closet, junked, etc. Look at sales volume. This is WAAAAAAAY off cozy building tho. Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:02:52 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: laptop instrument panel From: alwick@juno.com (ok How) On Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:27:21 -0400 John Millington writes: > >chapter 4, I have plenty of time to consider my options. I plan on having a >full set of 2 1/4" instruments in the panel to ensure that I properly can set >up the engine cooling, and rely on "store bought" engine instruments. Sounds like good conservative approach. I too will install all the flight critical instruments using traditional approach. The laptop is used for moving map, monitoring inputs, flagging pilot, storing variables, etc. > Alongside of these instruments I am putting together a '386 based, single >board computer that can load software written and saved to internal RAM based >"hardware disk". This means that I don't have any moving parts in the system >like a hard-drive. Sounds good. If you plan on moving map, 386 will just barely be able to handle it(depend on clock speed and ram). Contrary to popular opinion, the ol' hard drive can handle aircraft application. When one does fail, big deal. You still have all of your flight critical instruments. > I plan on utilizing the existing sender units that feed >the store bought instruments, by sampling the signals from these senders with >small single board Analog I/O boards connected by ribbon cable to the '386 >SBC and another ribbon cable to the COLOR, LCD Flat-panel Display. Major consideration for canards is sunlight reducing display readability. When I developed my glass panel years ago, I was convinced that displays would be good enough by the time my plane was finished. Looks like I was wrong. Good displays available, but cost premium. Maybe when your plane is done, price will come down. >crunching and calculating. The '386 is used simply for monitoring eight to >ten "input" values, and then displaying these representative values in the >most graphicly clear manner, on the CRT. I've got 27 variables so far. This includes quite a few analog variables (temperatures + other ) requiring various voltage conversions, and a lot of discrete inputs (simple). You might want to make a list of your i/o and see what your options are. >I think that done correctly, experimenting with a virtual system could be >extremely safe as well as who knows, If it works as nicely as I hope, There >is no reason not to experiment with going as far as trying to display flight >information in new and maybe even safer ways. Certainly agree. If you just improve the display approach, that's one thing (and valuable in it's own). You can also make use of the intellegence of the pc. Mine is programmed to greatly reduce liklihood of fuel exhaustion, gear up landing, forgetting to...., etc. I suspect that 95% of the pilots out there have never been exposed to these types of systems. Thus they don't realize the dramatic improvement in safety that's possible. Very ironic to have sys that's less $ than the 1930 version (gobs of dials), way safer, yet no gen aviation uses it. I'm convinced that poor problem solving skills... the inability to look outside the "box" , is the root cause for this lag. Enjoyed sharing thoughts with you. -al wick 85% comp. Cozy MkIV sn 389 with stock Subaru 2.5 engine. Computerized cockpit. Done building components. Expect completion date 4-30-99. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From: "Paul Comte" Subject: Re: COZY: laptop instrument panel Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:57:09 -0500 Comment on Al & John's posts... -----Original Message----- From: ok How To: cozy_builders@canard.com Date: Friday, October 09, 1998 11:44 AM Subject: Re: COZY: laptop instrument panel >On Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:27:21 -0400 John Millington > writes: >> Alongside of these instruments I am putting together a '386 based, >single >>board computer then Al: >Sounds good. If you plan on moving map, 386 will just barely be able to >handle it(depend on clock speed and ram). Contrary to popular opinion, >the ol' hard drive can handle aircraft application. I suspect a fair number of people will be including a CD-Player in their aircraft. I think it would make sense to build a software load and burn it onto a CD disk. Then you would be able to load your application from the CD-Player into a RAM disk. In flight reload would be possible too. I wouldn't rule out a 2.5" Hard Disk but a solid state drive (RAM disk utility) is much faster, lighter and uses less power than a mechanical drive. A local vendors sells a standard format (clone) motherboard which includes I/O, Video and Sound. They sell the board, 233Mhz MMX CPU(clone) and fan for about $130. DIMM memory is about $40 per 32MB. (That friends, may be more computing power than existed on the planet two decades ago...) don't call, I'm not selling nothin'!. Other tools like PCMCIA (people can't memorize computer industry acronyms) cards offer storage, but the MLB I mention is typical of the current breed. It can be set to boot from a CD-ROM drive that means you can take the brains with you when you tie down. Also, now that HUD is offered on some new automobiles, that hardware may soon be more common, allowing us to dispense with the LCD entirely. FWIW: Careful with those components. Some hard drives we see have labels warning about pressure applied on their cases. I think it would be a good idea to cycle any hard drive and display panel through the full range of pressure it may be subjected to in use. Having your HD lock up or LCD fog on final could get distracting... Best Regards Paul Comte A Plus Computer Service, LLC 5100 West Blue Mound Road Milwaukee, WI 53208-3654 (414) 456-9700 Voice (414) 456-9701 Fax (414) 305-7496 Mobil Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:30:59 -0500 From: Tom Brusehaver Subject: Re: COZY: laptop instrument panel >A local vendors sells a standard format (clone) motherboard which includes >I/O, Video and Sound. They sell the board, 233Mhz MMX CPU(clone) and fan >for about $130. DIMM memory is about $40 per 32MB. (That friends, may be >more computing power than existed on the planet two decades ago...) don't >call, I'm not selling nothin'!. Since we are talking about a cozy, and there are all the space trouble. A full sized MB is probably gonna be tight. If you only need a 386-486 JUMPtec makes a DIMM-PC. Whole computer the size of a DIMM (40x68mm 1.57x2.68in). http://www.jumptec.com Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 01:23:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "C. W. Wright" Subject: COZY: Electronic Ez instrumentation Builders list.... Hi Everyone, I just setup another mail list strictly for the topic of Electronic and digital flight instrumentation. It's a list intended to help coordinate and communicate information between those of you who are either building, have built, or thinking about building electronics into your aircraft. The list is named "ez-solo@canard.com" for historical reasons. It's intended to carry highly technical details and discussion that most subscribers to canard-aviators and cozy-builders might find extremely boring. If there's any posts that might be of more general interest, I'll forward them to canard-aviators as well. You don't need to subscribe to this list unless you're seriously involved in, or considering **building or developing** electronic instrumentation for your plane. To join, send the following (change the email address to your first ;-) to: majordomo@canard.com subscribe eze-solo youremail@yourisp.com Safe flights, -Wayne Wright From: Lee810@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 13:57:55 EDT Subject: COZY: Re: [canard-aviators] Re:Glass Cockpits/Computers In a message dated 10/9/98 10:19:36 PM Mountain Daylight Time, TEAMEZ@aol.com writes: > The FAA has made it very clear that they will NEVER certify any primary > flight instrument that uses a Windows operating system. This doesn't surprise me, but a lot of people building experimental aircraft use uncertified equipment anyway like Visions Microsystems, RMI, Grand Rapids, etc. because they are less expensive and offer more features than certified instruments. This thread got started by Mike Davis asking about the Boomerang's computerized instruments. The Boomerang has only one engine instrument on the panel, an uncertified (Jeff Rose) electronic tach, which is redundant since RPM data is monitored on the laptop. It also has one primary flight instrument, an RMI microencoder which redundantly displays some flight data like ASI, VSI, altimeter, etc. The only certified flight instrument on the panel is a turn and bank indicator. There are no vacuum-operated instruments. > Single-point failures (total electrical failure) or software-induced > display failures are just too risky for a small plane like an EZ. This is a good point. The safety of a flight should be assured in the event of complete loss of the laptop or primary electrical system. Of course, the requirements for redundancy will vary depending on whether you are talking about VFR or IFR conditions. BTW, the closest affordable solution to the original question would be something like the system found at: Lee Devlin LongEZ N36MX From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 14:14:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Re: [canard-aviators] Re:Glass Cockpits/Computers A year ago at OSH I was talking to the JPI people, suggested they take the slimline, and put them in one case. They said that wasn't possible since each instrument required a separate power supply. Seems kind of weak answer, It wouldn't be that hard or expensive to provide a separate powersupply (a voltage regulating chip, and a couple of resistors and capacitors) for each like they do for separate instruments, just put them all in one case. I (and I think almost everone) use one circuit breaker for all engine instruments, just splicing all the leads together. The fact is for just engine instruments, a Windows or Mac operatng system is an overkill, much smaller, easier to program, lighter weight computers, called embedded systems are available. We don't need flying file folders and bent paper clips on an airplane. From: Lee810@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 16:41:15 EDT Subject: Re: COZY: Re: [canard-aviators] Re:Glass Cockpits/Computers In a message dated 10/10/98 1:15:04 PM Mountain Daylight Time, cdenk@ix.netcom.com writes: > The fact is for just > engine instruments, a Windows or Mac operatng system is an overkill, much > smaller, easier to > program, lighter weight computers, called embedded systems are available. The laptop approach still requires a small embedded system to gather the data which then feeds the laptop information via a serial interface. The laptop is only the human interface. It's what presents the data and makes it readable. A laptop makes it easier to set up the parameter limits and custom defaults. Simple things like setting limits can be difficult to do with only a few keys and numeric display. You generally have hold down several unrelated keys simultaneously and then use one of the keys to increase or another to decrease and yet another to set the limit. A laptop can easily guide you through a menu without having to constantly refer to the user manual. It's also easier to upgrade the laptop since the price/performance is improving all the time. You can also use the laptop to run moving-map programs which are generally much more capable than a handheld moving map (although the handheld could be kept handy as a backup). I think that separation of the data gathering unit and the data display/keyboard unit makes a lot of sense. Lee Devlin LongEZ N36MX Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:26:58 -0500 From: Vance Atkinson Subject: COZY: Re: Sight gauge/electronic combination Lee, I have capacitive fuel gauges in my aircraft. An electronic engineer friend designed them and I built them about 8 years ago. There are no moving parts and the readout is in light bars. I think his system sells for around 400 bucks. His phone number is 817 498 2475 here in Dallas. He is the head of the company and his name is Harvy Ackerman, he happens to be building a GlassAir IIS. Lee810@aol.com wrote: > > Hi Vance, > > I was wondering if anyone has ever combined your sight gauge with a capacitive > sensor so that the fuel level may be monitored from the instrument panel as > well as visually. The reason I ask this is because it would be easier to > install than a standard probe which involves having to cut into the tank > whereas your installation requires only 2 small holes to be cut into each > tank. I realize that off-the-shelf capacitive probes are too big to fit > inside your gauges, but if a custom probe could be embedded in them, then it > should be possible to make a combination gauge which would also be easy to > install. > > Thanks, > > Lee Devlin From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 20:31:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Sight gauge/electronic combination Lee81 writes I use both Vance's sight gauges and the Skysports Capacitive. If I was going to do it again, I would not use the Westtach mechanical meter movement, but electronic (JPI or EI I think) that is calibrated at several different levels to give accurate digital readings plus low fuel alarm. The capacitive is necessary since with luggage in the rear the sight gauges are hidden. When on the long haul where you are using the fuel range, is when you will be carrying much luggage. Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:12:58 -0500 From: Vance Atkinson Subject: COZY: Re: [canard-aviators] Gyro damage question Good question. I think it depends on how fast your gyros wind down and how fast you put your ship on its nose. The first few years I flew my Cozy I had several vacuum pump failures. So did my hangar partners and other EZ owners. We found out you need a bigger suction line from back to front. I wound up replacing my gyros with used electric ones about 9 years ago and to date have had one rebuild since then. My gyros run down before I put the nose down, maybe that helps "CALDEIRO, FERNANDO (JSC-CB)" wrote: > > [The Canard Aviators's Mailing list] > > In parallel with the discussion regarding the angled panel. > > Does parking the ez on its nose immediately after engine shutdown could > have an adverse effect (shorten bearing life etc) on the gyros? > > In 400 hours of flying time with an occasional roll in the last 4 years > my gyros have degraded twice. Could it be it the reason? If so it's time > for a cageable type. > > Thanks > Frank C. > > \ > ->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-|- > / > For details on sponsors of this list, copyrights, and how to remove > yourself from this list, please visit: > > http://www.canard.com/ca-ending.html > > (c) 1997,1998 Canard Aviators. support@canard.com > / > -|-<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > \ From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:55:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Re: [canard-aviators] Gyro damage question My directional gyro has 650 hours since overhaul. At 300 hours it needed calibration ($60) to correct preccesion. At the moment it is in an instrument shop, hopefully calibration (and not overhaul) will cure the problem.