From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Roncz 1145 Airfoil Coordinates Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 10:24:53 EST People; A few months ago we had some discussions regarding the airfoil coordinates of both the COZY main wing (Mod. Eppler) and the canard (Roncz RM 1145). While surfing the Quickie web pages (nostalgia :-) ) I ran across the coordinates of the 1145 airfoil, for those of us that would like to check our canard templates, or make our own. See: http://www.gksys.com/qba/q-page.html Click on "Building Articles and Tips", and then on "Roncz RM1145 Airport Coordinates". This is at: http://www.gksys.com/qba/rm1145.htm directly. I have no knowledge of the accuracy of these coordinates - Caveat Emptor. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: lschuler@cellular.uscc.com Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 11:14:04 -0600 Subject: Re: COZY: Roncz 1145 Airfoil Coordinates >http://www.gksys.com/qba/rm1145.htm Gotta use '.html' at end; I couldn't get it with '.htm' FYI; maybe just me. Larry From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Re: COZY: Roncz 1145 Airfoil Coordinates (fwd) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 9:31:27 EST Larry Schuler says: > >http://www.gksys.com/qba/rm1145.htm > > > Gotta use '.html' at end; I couldn't get it with '.htm' And he's right. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: lschuler@cellular.uscc.com Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 16:11:39 -0600 Subject: Re: COZY: Roncz 1145 Airfoil Coordinates Marc wrote: >I have no knowledge of the accuracy of these coordinates - Caveat >Emptor. I took a look. The first pair of numbers is suspect; showing X = 76% and Y = 0% of cord. Larry Schuler lschuler@cellular.uscc.com From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Re: COZY: Roncz 1145 Airfoil Coordinates (fwd) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 10:24:03 EST Larry Schuler wrote; >I took a look. The first pair of numbers is suspect; showing X = 76% >and Y = 0% of cord. I believe that the first pair of numbers is an indication of the number of datapoints to follow - the first # is the # of upper surface coordinates, and the second # is the # of lower surface coordinates. In this case, the coordinates are given as a "wrap around", rather than as separate upper and lower sets, so there are 76 "upper" coordinates, and 0 lower coordinates. There are, in fact, 76 data points to follow the first line. And it's "chord", not "cord" :-). -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:30:36 -0500 From: David Domeier Subject: Re: COZY: Roncz 1145 Airfoil Coordinates (fwd) Marc, Ok. I've down loaded the numbers. Now for a question from the totally uninformed when it comes to aircraft design - how do I plot the numbers? I assume there is a reference line and the numbers are above and below that line - correct? If that's true, I should be able to construct the air foil shape with a drafting program. I'd like to do it and build a template to see how far off my canard is and compare it to the MKIV plan to see how much it changed in the printing process. dd From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Re: COZY: Roncz 1145 Airfoil Coordinates (fwd) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 11:48:01 EST David Domeier writes: > Now for a question from the totally uninformed when it comes to >aircraft design - how do I plot the numbers? > > I assume there is a reference line and the numbers are above and below >that line - correct? I believe that your assumptions are correct, and that the reference line is an imaginary line drawn from the forward-most point on the airfoil to the rearmost point (along the X-axis). The X,Y coordinate pairs should (in this case) start and end at the leading edge, with the points traveling rearward along the top surface and then back forward along the lower surface. I think there is an implied first point at 0,0. >....... If that's true, I should be able to construct the >air foil shape with a drafting program. Correct. Two open B-spline fit through the top points and bottom points, tangent at the leading edge and free at the trailing edge should get you a very accurate template. Note that the coordinates are in normalized form - X varies from 0 to 100%, so you'll have to scale the points given the actual chord of the canard. Since the points are given to two decimal places, you can get a template good to a couple of thousandths of an inch at the worst (given our canard chord) - certainly much better than the paper copies that we all made our wings from :-). >......... I'd like to do it and build a >template to see how far off my canard is and compare it to the MKIV plan >to see how much it changed in the printing process. That would be excellent. I'd be happy to take a DXF file and make it available via the list server and the web pages. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: lschuler@cellular.uscc.com Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 11:19:59 -0600 Subject: Re[2]: COZY: Roncz 1145 Airfoil Coordinates (fwd) David Domeier wrote: >Now for a question from the totally uninformed when it comes to >aircraft design - how do I plot the numbers? >I assume there is a reference line and the numbers are above and below >that line - correct? If that's true, I should be able to construct the >air foil shape with a drafting program. I'd like to do it and build a >template to see how far off my canard is and compare it to the MKIV plan >to see how much it changed in the printing process. Both sets of numbers are expressed in percentage of chord (wow, I spelled it right). First column is "X" and second is "Y". "X" is given along the chord line and "Y", as you guessed, is above the line when positive and below it when negative. In order to compare the list of coordinates to the plans, you will need to know the exact chord length of the canard (including the elevator). This may be a bit dificult since our elevators are essentially slotted flaps. Maybe someone knows if the elevator gap is added to the shape or subtracted from it? My guess is Rutan and Roncz do; but few others. Larry Schuler lschuler@cellular.uscc.com From: Lee Devlin Subject: COZY: Roncz 1145 Airfoil Coordinates Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 10:56:05 MST Marc writes, > Correct. Two open B-spline fit through the top points and bottom points, > tangent at the leading edge and free at the trailing edge should get you > a very accurate template. Note that the coordinates are in normalized > form - X varies from 0 to 100%, so you'll have to scale the points given > the actual chord of the canard. > > Since the points are given to two decimal places, you can get a template > good to a couple of thousandths of an inch at the worst (given our canard > chord) - certainly much better than the paper copies that we all made our > wings from :-). Don't assume that something given to two decimal points is actually accurate to two decimal points :-). I clipped the info from the www page and piped it into a CAD layout. It appears that someone generated this data with a ruler and a paper template. Also, it's a single airfoil which doesn't work too well for checking accuracy of the canard and elevator shapes. If someone can provide the actual coordinates, I think we would have something as accurate as Marc describes. But, as he mentioned previously, caveat emptor. Lee Devlin Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:12:16 -0600 (CST) From: "Tom G. Brusehaver" Subject: Re: COZY: Roncz 1145 Airfoil Coordinates (fwd) > > Now for a question from the totally uninformed when it comes to >aircraft design - how do I plot the numbers? There is a very nice program called plotfoil. I have used it for model airplanes, it might work for this airfoil. From: lschuler@cellular.uscc.com Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 11:35:43 -0600 Subject: Re[2]: COZY: Roncz 1145 Airfoil Coordinates (fwd) Marc wrote: >snip >... you'll have to scale the points given the actual chord of the canard. >snip Anybody know what the canard chord "should" be? Larry From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: canard airfoil Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 10:32:07 EST People; Since we were talking about the canard airfoil, and since I just happened to be in a conversation with David Lednicer (an aerodynamicist who has worked with John Roncz, Burt Rutan, etc.) about another topic, I mentioned to him that we were looking for the canonical list of coordinates for the Roncz 1145MS airfoil, and that we had found something on the web but weren't sure what it was. Here's what he sent me (and in this case, I believe that these are __RIGHT__ - this is as close to getting them straight from Roncz as it's going to get). The coordinates (three sets) are normalized from 0 - 1, rather than the previous 0 - 100. There are also MANY more points, making for (as Lee Devlin hoped :-) ) a more _accurate_ airfoil, not just a more _precise_ airfoil. Dave says: > Way back when I worked for Roncz, we needed coordinates for the >R1145MS, as Burt wanted to use that airfoil for the Ares canard. Of >course, John had lost them, but remembered how he created the airfoil. >Here are is the recreation, in three parts. First is the airfoil as one >piece, then comes the main element and then the flap element. Save everything after the line, then you should be able to recreate the wing as a whole, just the canard, and then just the elevators. (Now, if we could just get the datapoints for the modified Eppler.......). -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com ================================= RONCZ R1145MS AIRFOIL 63. 113. > 0.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000543 0.0019616 0.0001986 0.0039192 0.0005276 0.0066305 0.0009931 0.0093223 0.0026593 0.0158442 0.0049653 0.0221732 0.0061596 0.0249025 0.0074479 0.0275870 0.0098188 0.0320248 0.0124131 0.0363390 0.0182522 0.0446540 0.0248263 0.0524083 0.0366067 0.0635258 0.0496525 0.0731463 0.0737472 0.0863683 0.0993050 0.0967026 0.1239631 0.1048185 0.1489575 0.1116682 0.1736814 0.1172836 0.1986100 0.1219677 0.2233900 0.1258129 0.2482626 0.1289795 0.2730639 0.1315427 0.2979151 0.1335716 0.3227292 0.1350993 0.3475676 0.1361564 0.3723904 0.1367616 0.3972201 0.1369294 0.4220504 0.1366688 0.4468726 0.1359791 0.4717121 0.1348488 0.4965251 0.1332413 0.5213776 0.1311095 0.5461776 0.1284351 0.5710446 0.1251832 0.5958301 0.1213603 0.6207094 0.1169309 0.6454828 0.1119415 0.6703698 0.1063640 0.6951351 0.1002721 0.7074984 0.0970458 0.7198458 0.0937589 0.7547693 0.0831857 0.7893768 0.0715424 0.8240150 0.0600053 0.8312372 0.0577386 0.8384593 0.0554045 0.8465483 0.0522482 0.8555759 0.0491825 0.8627982 0.0466892 0.8718259 0.0435220 0.8826592 0.0396465 0.8916869 0.0363548 0.9003715 0.0327002 0.9112048 0.0285681 0.9202325 0.0251354 0.9310658 0.0210582 0.9384505 0.0185132 0.9467182 0.0155599 0.9641801 0.0103969 0.9820005 0.0064409 1.0000000 0.0030884 0.0000000 0.0000000 0.0001185 -.0031195 0.0003286 -.0051820 0.0006424 -.0072198 0.0013044 -.0102071 0.0021887 -.0130823 0.0032861 -.0158145 0.0051014 -.0177894 0.0105180 -.0228971 0.0142633 -.0256864 0.0178744 -.0277854 0.0214854 -.0294630 0.0250966 -.0308062 0.0297112 -.0323297 0.0351278 -.0340983 0.0387389 -.0351325 0.0441555 -.0365014 0.0491143 -.0375983 0.0545309 -.0387816 0.0581420 -.0395083 0.0617531 -.0401901 0.0671697 -.0411354 0.0725864 -.0419994 0.0775504 -.0427428 0.0847725 -.0437697 0.0901892 -.0444772 0.0956058 -.0451361 0.1010225 -.0457494 0.1064391 -.0463217 0.1109588 -.0467810 0.1163754 -.0473026 0.1217921 -.0477913 0.1272086 -.0482485 0.1326253 -.0486763 0.1380419 -.0490762 0.1452755 -.0495724 0.1524977 -.0500325 0.1615254 -.0505501 0.1705531 -.0510070 0.1795808 -.0514074 0.1890495 -.0517720 0.1980773 -.0520695 0.2071050 -.0523194 0.2161327 -.0525245 0.2251604 -.0526871 0.2345929 -.0528163 0.2454262 -.0529150 0.2544540 -.0529585 0.2634817 -.0529691 0.2725095 -.0529483 0.2814570 -.0529033 0.2904848 -.0528308 0.2995125 -.0527313 0.3085402 -.0526057 0.3175679 -.0524553 0.3272928 -.0522674 0.3381261 -.0520309 0.3489593 -.0517604 0.3579871 -.0515091 0.3706258 -.0511178 0.3805096 -.0507813 0.3895374 -.0504505 0.3985651 -.0500949 0.4075928 -.0497137 0.4166205 -.0493063 0.4256482 -.0488720 0.4350470 -.0483827 0.4440747 -.0478836 0.4531025 -.0473586 0.4639358 -.0466948 0.4729635 -.0461150 0.4813941 -.0455524 0.4922272 -.0448149 0.5030605 -.0440447 0.5120882 -.0433738 0.5229215 -.0425306 0.5337549 -.0416432 0.5444903 -.0407445 0.5553236 -.0395388 0.5800000 -.0370829 0.6000000 -.0353952 0.6200000 -.0338843 0.6400000 -.0324292 0.6600000 -.0308600 0.6879130 -.0279941 0.7059685 -.0256078 0.7131906 -.0250453 0.7204128 -.0244785 0.7312460 -.0236207 0.7420793 -.0227534 0.7529126 -.0218763 0.7637459 -.0209899 0.7745792 -.0200939 0.7854125 -.0191885 0.7962458 -.0182733 0.8070790 -.0173488 0.8197178 -.0162582 0.8323566 -.0151546 0.8449955 -.0140382 0.8576343 -.0129087 0.8702731 -.0117664 0.8829119 -.0106109 0.8955508 -.0094427 0.9081896 -.0082614 0.9208284 -.0070670 0.9334672 -.0058599 0.9461061 -.0046396 0.9587448 -.0034066 0.9713837 -.0021607 0.9822170 -.0010823 0.9876336 -.0005396 0.9930502 0.0000000 1.0000000 0.0000000 RONCZ R1145MS MAIN ELEMENT 43. 105. 0.0000000 0.0000000 0.0000543 0.0019616 0.0001986 0.0039192 0.0005276 0.0066305 0.0009931 0.0093223 0.0026593 0.0158442 0.0049653 0.0221732 0.0061596 0.0249025 0.0074479 0.0275870 0.0098188 0.0320248 0.0124131 0.0363390 0.0182522 0.0446540 0.0248263 0.0524083 0.0366067 0.0635258 0.0496525 0.0731463 0.0737472 0.0863683 0.0993050 0.0967026 0.1239631 0.1048185 0.1489575 0.1116682 0.1736814 0.1172836 0.1986100 0.1219677 0.2233900 0.1258129 0.2482626 0.1289795 0.2730639 0.1315427 0.2979151 0.1335716 0.3227292 0.1350993 0.3475676 0.1361564 0.3723904 0.1367616 0.3972201 0.1369294 0.4220504 0.1366688 0.4468726 0.1359791 0.4717121 0.1348488 0.4965251 0.1332413 0.5213776 0.1311095 0.5461776 0.1284351 0.5710446 0.1251832 0.5958301 0.1213603 0.6207094 0.1169309 0.6454828 0.1119415 0.6703698 0.1063640 0.6951351 0.1002721 0.7074984 0.0970458 0.7198458 0.0937589 0.0000000 0.0000000 0.0001185 -.0031195 0.0003286 -.0051820 0.0006424 -.0072198 0.0013044 -.0102071 0.0021887 -.0130823 0.0032861 -.0158145 0.0051014 -.0177894 0.0105180 -.0228971 0.0142633 -.0256864 0.0178744 -.0277854 0.0214854 -.0294630 0.0250966 -.0308062 0.0297112 -.0323297 0.0351278 -.0340983 0.0387389 -.0351325 0.0441555 -.0365014 0.0491143 -.0375983 0.0545309 -.0387816 0.0581420 -.0395083 0.0617531 -.0401901 0.0671697 -.0411354 0.0725864 -.0419994 0.0775504 -.0427428 0.0847725 -.0437697 0.0901892 -.0444772 0.0956058 -.0451361 0.1010225 -.0457494 0.1064391 -.0463217 0.1109588 -.0467810 0.1163754 -.0473026 0.1217921 -.0477913 0.1272086 -.0482485 0.1326253 -.0486763 0.1380419 -.0490762 0.1452755 -.0495724 0.1524977 -.0500325 0.1615254 -.0505501 0.1705531 -.0510070 0.1795808 -.0514074 0.1890495 -.0517720 0.1980773 -.0520695 0.2071050 -.0523194 0.2161327 -.0525245 0.2251604 -.0526871 0.2345929 -.0528163 0.2454262 -.0529150 0.2544540 -.0529585 0.2634817 -.0529691 0.2725095 -.0529483 0.2814570 -.0529033 0.2904848 -.0528308 0.2995125 -.0527313 0.3085402 -.0526057 0.3175679 -.0524553 0.3272928 -.0522674 0.3381261 -.0520309 0.3489593 -.0517604 0.3579871 -.0515091 0.3706258 -.0511178 0.3805096 -.0507813 0.3895374 -.0504505 0.3985651 -.0500949 0.4075928 -.0497137 0.4166205 -.0493063 0.4256482 -.0488720 0.4350470 -.0483827 0.4440747 -.0478836 0.4531025 -.0473586 0.4639358 -.0466948 0.4729635 -.0461150 0.4813941 -.0455524 0.4922272 -.0448149 0.5030605 -.0440447 0.5120882 -.0433738 0.5229215 -.0425306 0.5337549 -.0416432 0.5444903 -.0407445 0.5553236 -.0395388 0.5661569 -.0382207 0.5730313 -.0370992 0.5805171 -.0343499 0.5877468 -.0298789 0.5951184 -.0240990 0.6019231 -.0164013 0.6095484 -.0053035 0.6172449 0.0088511 0.6245008 0.0283428 0.6309948 0.0446991 0.6378497 0.0591980 0.6451614 0.0712829 0.6509866 0.0794261 0.6564033 0.0832801 0.6625199 0.0877556 0.6677049 0.0903060 0.6734724 0.0921493 0.6789486 0.0929985 0.6843653 0.0929801 0.6894346 0.0929138 0.6930456 0.0923360 0.6984622 0.0918554 0.7038789 0.0912854 0.7111010 0.0903860 0.7165176 0.0896071 0.7198458 0.0891497 RONCZ R1145MS FLAP ELEMENT (LONG EZ PIVOT X=0.6874131, Z=-.0138996) 51. 45. 0.6441747 0.0151253 0.6442502 0.0181061 0.6444761 0.0210723 0.6448516 0.0240099 0.6453743 0.0269039 0.6472882 0.0337995 0.6500455 0.0416604 0.6524340 0.0468730 0.6560452 0.0516215 0.6607222 0.0570656 0.6669687 0.0630559 0.6731106 0.0675908 0.6793202 0.0712373 0.6847368 0.0737479 0.6899969 0.0754371 0.6958229 0.0770848 0.7012395 0.0782997 0.7066561 0.0791509 0.7122062 0.0797289 0.7170227 0.0801480 0.7242449 0.0803529 0.7309163 0.0800791 0.7381384 0.0796789 0.7454729 0.0788317 0.7526950 0.0778771 0.7606765 0.0766275 0.7697042 0.0749224 0.7769264 0.0734652 0.7841486 0.0718622 0.7915152 0.0693726 0.7987374 0.0674086 0.8095707 0.0643367 0.8167929 0.0622047 0.8240150 0.0600053 0.8312372 0.0577386 0.8384593 0.0554045 0.8465483 0.0522482 0.8555759 0.0491825 0.8627982 0.0466892 0.8718259 0.0435220 0.8826592 0.0396465 0.8916869 0.0363548 0.9003715 0.0327002 0.9112048 0.0285681 0.9202325 0.0251354 0.9310658 0.0210582 0.9384505 0.0185132 0.9467182 0.0155599 0.9641801 0.0103969 0.9820005 0.0064409 1.0000000 0.0030884 0.6441747 0.0151253 0.6442502 0.0125728 0.6444761 0.0100319 0.6448516 0.0075097 0.6453743 0.0050174 0.6461778 0.0021257 0.6494549 -.0055665 0.6512605 -.0085764 0.6530660 -.0111209 0.6554132 -.0139321 0.6590243 -.0174631 0.6633576 -.0207743 0.6669687 -.0229415 0.6723853 -.0253794 0.6770797 -.0268171 0.6824964 -.0277837 0.6879130 -.0279941 0.7059685 -.0256078 0.7131906 -.0250453 0.7204128 -.0244785 0.7312460 -.0236207 0.7420793 -.0227534 0.7529126 -.0218763 0.7637459 -.0209899 0.7745792 -.0200939 0.7854125 -.0191885 0.7962458 -.0182733 0.8070790 -.0173488 0.8197178 -.0162582 0.8323566 -.0151546 0.8449955 -.0140382 0.8576343 -.0129087 0.8702731 -.0117664 0.8829119 -.0106109 0.8955508 -.0094427 0.9081896 -.0082614 0.9208284 -.0070670 0.9334672 -.0058599 0.9461061 -.0046396 0.9587448 -.0034066 0.9713837 -.0021607 0.9822170 -.0010823 0.9876336 -.0005396 0.9930502 0.0000000 1.0000000 0.0000000 From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Eppler coordinates (fwd) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 12:04:47 EST George Berven writes: >Marc J. Zeitlin wrote: >(Now, if we could just get the datapoints for the modified >Eppler.......). >Data points your looking for may be at: > >http://amber.aae.uiuc.edu/~m-selig/ads/coord_database.html A year or so ago when we first discussed this issue, the coordinates were NOT available here. However, a glance now shows a listing for: Eppler E1230 general aviation airfoil (Long-EZ and Defiant wing airfoil) at: http://amber.aae.uiuc.edu/~m-selig/ads/coord/e1230.dat So, if someone wants to plot these out and see if they're the "Modified 1230 Eppler" and match the templates, this is the data with which to do it. The picture at: http://amber.aae.uiuc.edu/~m-selig/ads/afplots/e1230.gif does seem to show the reflex near the T.E. correctly, but it's not a high resolution plot, so I can't be sure. Wondered why my large sanding block (1' x 3') wouldn't fit into the reflex area :-) ). I think we're FINALLY getting close to having the data to accurately create templates. As Ed Boykin points out, if there are differences in twist and/or coordinates for the main wing template stations, we need to know precisely what those are before anyone uses this data to create wings. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:13:42 -0500 (EST) From: Nigel Field Subject: Re: COZY: canard airfoil At 10:32 AM 1/21/98 EST, you wrote: >People; > >Since we were talking about the canard airfoil, and since I just happened >to be in a conversation with David Lednicer (an aerodynamicist who has >worked with John Roncz, Burt Rutan, etc.) about another topic, I >mentioned to him that we were looking for the canonical list of >coordinates for the Roncz 1145MS airfoil, and that we had found something >on the web but weren't sure what it was. I know where they came from. About 5 years ago I measured them from a paper template with a ruler and dividers and loaded the numbers into an airfoil pressure plot application to see what was what. I made the mistake of sharing them with a few people but I included the explanation of how they were derived. Some idiot put them on a web page without the explation. Good leason learned here. Thanks Marc for digging up the real data. Nigel Field From: Lee Devlin Subject: COZY: Roncz 1145 airfoil Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 18:18:43 MST Now this data looks a lot better. There's still a little waviness I can't explain just under and behind the leading edge of the elevator that looks a little funny but otherwise, it looks very good. I editted the file and placed commas in between the coordinates which is what most CAD systems require. You need to construct the splines with six separate commands. The first two sets of numbers are the top and bottom of the whole airfoil. The second two sets of numbers are the top and bottom of the canard without the elevator section. The last two sets of numbers are the top and bottom of the elevator. All that's required is scaling, placing the fishtail, and annotating it. Then it will be available for many generations of builders to come without the inevitable degradation which paper templates are subject to. Thanks, Marc for finding this information. Lee Devlin 0.0000000,0.0000000 0.0000543,0.0019616 0.0001986,0.0039192 0.0005276,0.0066305 0.0009931,0.0093223 0.0026593,0.0158442 0.0049653,0.0221732 0.0061596,0.0249025 0.0074479,0.0275870 0.0098188,0.0320248 0.0124131,0.0363390 0.0182522,0.0446540 0.0248263,0.0524083 0.0366067,0.0635258 0.0496525,0.0731463 0.0737472,0.0863683 0.0993050,0.0967026 0.1239631,0.1048185 0.1489575,0.1116682 0.1736814,0.1172836 0.1986100,0.1219677 0.2233900,0.1258129 0.2482626,0.1289795 0.2730639,0.1315427 0.2979151,0.1335716 0.3227292,0.1350993 0.3475676,0.1361564 0.3723904,0.1367616 0.3972201,0.1369294 0.4220504,0.1366688 0.4468726,0.1359791 0.4717121,0.1348488 0.4965251,0.1332413 0.5213776,0.1311095 0.5461776,0.1284351 0.5710446,0.1251832 0.5958301,0.1213603 0.6207094,0.1169309 0.6454828,0.1119415 0.6703698,0.1063640 0.6951351,0.1002721 0.7074984,0.0970458 0.7198458,0.0937589 0.7547693,0.0831857 0.7893768,0.0715424 0.8240150,0.0600053 0.8312372,0.0577386 0.8384593,0.0554045 0.8465483,0.0522482 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0.7606765,0.0766275 0.7697042,0.0749224 0.7769264,0.0734652 0.7841486,0.0718622 0.7915152,0.0693726 0.7987374,0.0674086 0.8095707,0.0643367 0.8167929,0.0622047 0.8240150,0.0600053 0.8312372,0.0577386 0.8384593,0.0554045 0.8465483,0.0522482 0.8555759,0.0491825 0.8627982,0.0466892 0.8718259,0.0435220 0.8826592,0.0396465 0.8916869,0.0363548 0.9003715,0.0327002 0.9112048,0.0285681 0.9202325,0.0251354 0.9310658,0.0210582 0.9384505,0.0185132 0.9467182,0.0155599 0.9641801,0.0103969 0.9820005,0.0064409 1.0000000,0.0030884 0.6441747,0.0151253 0.6442502,0.0125728 0.6444761,0.0100319 0.6448516,0.0075097 0.6453743,0.0050174 0.6461778,0.0021257 0.6494549,-.0055665 0.6512605,-.0085764 0.6530660,-.0111209 0.6554132,-.0139321 0.6590243,-.0174631 0.6633576,-.0207743 0.6669687,-.0229415 0.6723853,-.0253794 0.6770797,-.0268171 0.6824964,-.0277837 0.6879130,-.0279941 0.7059685,-.0256078 0.7131906,-.0250453 0.7204128,-.0244785 0.7312460,-.0236207 0.7420793,-.0227534 0.7529126,-.0218763 0.7637459,-.0209899 0.7745792,-.0200939 0.7854125,-.0191885 0.7962458,-.0182733 0.8070790,-.0173488 0.8197178,-.0162582 0.8323566,-.0151546 0.8449955,-.0140382 0.8576343,-.0129087 0.8702731,-.0117664 0.8829119,-.0106109 0.8955508,-.0094427 0.9081896,-.0082614 0.9208284,-.0070670 0.9334672,-.0058599 0.9461061,-.0046396 0.9587448,-.0034066 0.9713837,-.0021607 0.9822170,-.0010823 0.9876336,-.0005396 0.9930502,0.0000000 1.0000000,0.0000000 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:54:29 -0800 From: Kevin Russert Walsh Subject: Re: COZY: Roncz 1145 airfoil OK Folks- My laptop is alive again (for now) so I will do the .DFX conversion of the airfoils. A couple of questions: Chord lengths for each for the scaling factor? I'll do each at 1" and also the right length, so it can be scaled, but I need those lengths, as the only dims I have are from a set of Long-EZ plans, and I am unsure of the changes to the Cozy. Good enough? _____________________________________________________________________________ Kevin R. Walsh Graduate Student krwalsh@alum.mit.edu Manufacturing Systems Engineering TEL 650.493.3567 Stanford University http://www.stanford.edu/~krwalsh From: lschuler@cellular.uscc.com Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 16:29:57 -0600 Subject: Re: COZY: canard airfoil You wrote: >snip >I believe that these are __RIGHT__ - this is as close to getting them >straight from Roncz as it's going to get). >The coordinates (three sets) are normalized from 0 - 1, rather than the >previous 0 - 100. There are also MANY more points, making for (as Lee >Devlin hoped :-) ) a more _accurate_ airfoil, not just a more _precise_ >airfoil. >snip (aren't ya glad) :-) Darn good stuff too!!!!!!!!! Damn your'e good! At first glance, it looks very close to what plans have. I have not ploted yet to physically compare, but noticed that the flap (elevator) hinge point may be considerably diferent. I think ours is further back and lower. Anyone else notice this or been able to compare yet? Since I don't have a good plotter I plan to plot using my good old dot matrix with a routine I wrote which will provide the plot accuracy of a single printer pin width. I should be able to send you an ASCII file if anyone is interested in grabbing it off your web page. Bet lots of folks don't have ACAD. I'll try to get to it this weekend. Sure makes me want to put the breaks on my canard/elevator. Decissions, decissions.... Larry Schuler Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:39:32 -0800 From: Kevin Russert Walsh Subject: Re: COZY: Roncz 1145 airfoil I have done the .DXF conversion, and will send it to Mark when I am through. I have a set of Long-EZ plans, and was unsure of the chord length. Jim Newman respons that it should be the same - 13" can anyone confirm? I am fighting a bad computer at this point, but I should have it done in a couple of hours. Thanks _____________________________________________________________________________ Kevin R. Walsh Graduate Student krwalsh@alum.mit.edu Manufacturing Systems Engineering TEL 650.493.3567 Stanford University http://www.stanford.edu/~krwalsh Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:10:40 -0500 From: bil kleb Subject: Re: COZY: Roncz 1145 airfoil Lee Devlin wrote: > > Now this data looks a lot better. There's still a little waviness I > can't explain just under and behind the leading edge of the elevator > that looks a little funny but otherwise, it looks very good. has anybody asked john r about this waviness? or are these a/f coordinates a case of better to ask forgiveness than ask permission? -- bil Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:55:47 +0100 From: "LCDR James D. Newman" Subject: COZY: Re: Roncz 1145 airfoil Hi Marc and All, >He said that his calculations and measurements that were made show that a well made L.E. wing has laminar flow to pretty much the maximum theoretical amount for that airfoil, so something's working right :-).< Yes, see the LE Canard Pushers for a good pic of the results of an air flow test of air across the wing from putting a light film of oil along the leading edge then flying. You can see in this pic that the turbulent flow modified Eppler 1230 airfoil used as a main wing can still attain about 30% of chord laminar flow (mentioned before - see archieves for discussion) with a good surface finish. >Dave's trying to dig up the "modified" Eppler 1230 coordinates for me - if he has them, he's probably the only source - the UIUC database doesn't have the "modified" version. Dave thought that the only difference was that the "reflex" near the T.E. had been filled in..... we'll see.< Correct. The cusp was flattened out (from the bottom spar cap to the wing trailing edge) to bring the Eppler 1230 airfoil pitching moment down to where the airfoil could be better used in a canard configuration (also mentioned before - see archieves for discussion). Infinity's Forever, JD From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Re: COZY: Roncz 1145 airfoil (fwd) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 9:49:22 EST bil kleb asks; >has anybody asked john r about this waviness? or are these a/f >coordinates a case of better to ask forgiveness than ask permission? I didn't ask Roncz, but I asked Dave Lednicer (worked with Roncz/Rutan). He says that all airfoils show this "bumpiness" in the templates to some degree, some worse than others (he specifically said the Q2 templates had it bad, although I don't remember this from my Q2 wing making days :-), and that by the time you make the templates, file them smooth, hot wire the foam, sand it, glass, fill, and sand, it's meaningless - the "bumpiness" will be long gone. He said that his calculations and measurements that were made show that a well made L.E. wing has laminar flow to pretty much the maximum theoretical amount for that airfoil, so something's working right :-). Dave's trying to dig up the "modified" Eppler 1230 coordinates for me - if he has them, he's probably the only source - the UIUC database doesn't have the "modified" version. Dave thought that the only difference was that the "reflex" near the T.E. had been filled in..... we'll see. I've created DXF files (as has Kevin Walsh) for the canard, and as soon as I verify the chord length, will make the normalized and true size versions available via email and the web. Please email me (directly - NOT to the COZY list) your canard chord length as measured on the canard and/or as you measure it from the templates (let me know which it is). I'd like to get a large # of measurements to get an accurate average. Remember, this is the distance from the L.E. of the canard to the T.E. of the elevator. I'll do the same for the main wing when we have that data complete. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 15:30:50 -0500 From: bil kleb Subject: COZY: cfd coden i finally got around to working on my cfd code again... if anyone is interested in a meaningless sexy color plot of the flow over the roncz 1145ms airfoil, see http://www.geocities.com/~kleb/r1145ms.gif (8567 bytes) or, the same overlaid with the [very coarse] computational grid: http://www.geocities.com/~kleb/r1145msG.gif (40803 bytes) now, if only someone had a 3D cad model of a cozy iv they'd be willing to share... -- bil