Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:49:53 -0500 (EST) From: DFinn7971@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: EZpoxy hardener??? In a message dated 97-02-17 19:22:46 EST, JRAEROCAD@yadtel.net (Jeff S Russell) writes: << People who are using the Safe-t-poxy (EZ10/ EZ84) should store your hardener at or above 60 degrees. (up to 150 degrees) >> I think this was suggested a while back but I'll throw a solution on the table again. Jim Rios, a Cozy Classic builder built a box out of thick insulation quality styrofoam (taped together) in his garage. He stuck a 40 watt bulb in the box and stores his epoxy in there. I got a little more elaborate and built a 1x2 wooden frame with 1/4" waferboard sides. The waferboard is glued and tacked onto the 1x2 frames. The box measures about 3' square and 18" thick. I filled in over the waferboard with 3/4" styrofoam insulation. I mounted a light bulb wired to a dimmer switch and screwed a thermometer to the side. The front is held on with two hook and eye clasps (one on each side). Works like a champ! Dick Finn Cozy Mark IV #46 DFINN7971@AOL.COM From: Epplin_John_A@hpmail1.90.deere.com Date: Tue, 18 Feb 97 14:36:13 -0600 Subject: Re: COZY: EZpoxy hardener??? Dick Finn writes: > I got a little more elaborate and built a 1x2 wooden frame with 1/4" > waferboard sides. The waferboard is glued and tacked onto the 1x2 frames. > The box measures about 3' square and 18" thick. I filled in over the > waferboard with 3/4" styrofoam insulation. I mounted a light bulb wired to a > dimmer switch and screwed a thermometer to the side. The front is held on > with two hook and eye clasps (one on each side). > > Works like a champ! > Check garage & yard sales or go to local home supply store and get a kitchen cabinet upper unit. The one I got has 3 doors with one of them walled off from the other 2. I lined the single compartment with fiberglass ceiling tile scraps glued in with contact cement. I purchased a remote sensing thermostat from Grainger with a range of something very low to 100 F. You can use a 100 watt bulb as a heater. I found it necessary to put a Radio Shack 110 volt muffin fan in the box to maintain the epoxy at a reasonably constant temp. Wire the fan so it is constantly on, use a small fuse just in case. Where the bulb and fan are is not important as long as the fan is running. Just keep the temp sensor away from the heater, preferebly above it in case the fan should quit. John Epplin Mk4 #467 by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-5 #17060) with SMTP id <01IFKKXZ0QPU9481GD@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Tue, 18 Feb 1997 18:41:45 EST Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 18:41:38 -0500 (EST) Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by InfoAve.Net From: Nick Ugolini Subject: Re: COZY: Epoxy Heat Box >> I got a little more elaborate and built a 1x2 wooden frame with 1/4" >> waferboard sides. The waferboard is glued and tacked onto the 1x2 >frames. >> The box measures about 3' square and 18" thick. I filled in over >the >> waferboard with 3/4" styrofoam insulation. I mounted a light bulb >wired to a...... Whooooo, Boy you boys are getting REAL HIGH tech on me. When you are desperate (like I was) a cardboard box (on its side), a light fixture, some tie wraps to hold everything together and a old thermostat (make sure it is the type with a mercury type switch) works GREAT. I use a spring clamp to hood the covers shut. The 75 watt light bulb maintains my epoxy between 80-85 degrees. The box works so good I dont feel any need to replace it. Of course I used aviation teflon wire for the wiring (thats all I had.... scraps) : ) Nick Ugolini unick@mail.charleston.net Varieze N89RS LongEZ N29TM Cozy Mark IV #0264 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:18:38 -0700 (MST) From: Ron Lee Subject: COZY: My Epoxy Incubator Just completed my epoxy incubator. It is slightly different than some mentioned here as far as temperature control. Physically, it is about 24" wide, 21.75" high and 20" deep (inside dimensions). Nothing magical about these dimensions except that it is plenty of room to get my epoxy pump in and out (height) and room for four cans of epoxy, light bulbs, thermostat, and 5 min epoxy. The frame was made from 2" x 2" material, held together with deck screws. Predrill the holes to prevent wood splitting. Used peg board to rigidize the frame (glue and roofing nails). 1.5" foam was pressed inbetween the frame members and glued to the pegboard with caulk. Secured this structure to the lower work bench wood with deck screws. Added more foam on two sides and the top for added insulation. The heat source is two 60 watt bulbs in parellel (?) with a Sunwarm single pole (model 1A22-3) wall mount thermostat used to control the light bulbs. All connection are made in plastic junction boxes. The light bulbs are in circular bases and junction boxes. Made up my own cord with 14-2 w/ground and a plug (system is not grounded the way I have it wired). the thermostat is adjustable and in its current setting comes on at 82 degrees (F) and off at 89 degrees. with the garage temp at about 50 degrees, the bulbs are on about 4 minutes out of every 17 minutes. This is without anything in the incubator. Once things are put in, I suspect the bulbs will be on even less and the epoxy temp will be more stable than the air temp fluctuations. I used two bulbs due to one bulb initially being on almost continuously. Plus it provides insurance that if one bulb burns out while I am gone, one should still work. Addition of the extra foam may have solved the initial concern but not the security of two bulbs. Total cost about $32 but I had the wood, pegboard and deck screws. Ron Lee Posted-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:47:56 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:47:38 -0500 From: Darren DeLoach Subject: COZY: Thermostatic controller? I went by the local Radio Shack to check out the thermostatic controller I'd heard mentioned by a number of builders to control the light bulb inside an epoxy warming box. Apparently, RS no longers sells this unit and the local guy had already tried getting some from the home office earlier in the year with no success. Are there any builders out there who have solved the problem differently? I'd hate to waste time hand-building one with a thermostatic sensor and a relay when I could be building something airworthy.... -- Darren DeLoach Sales & Software http://www.deloach.com Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:09:20 -0600 (MDT) From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: COZY: Thermostatic controller? I used a single pole thermostatic relay (?) that is used to turn on and off electric baseboard heaters. It only cost about $15 at the local home improvement/hardware store. In my case it controls two light bulbs in series in case one burns out. The air temp does span about 20 degrees (80-100 deg F) at my current thermostat setting. However, the greater thermal mass of epoxy would cut that down substantially I believe. Will through a container of water in to check that fluctuation. Ron Lee At 13:47 97/4/21 -0500, you wrote: >I went by the local Radio Shack to check out the thermostatic controller I'd >heard mentioned by a number of builders to control the light bulb inside an >epoxy warming box. Apparently, RS no longers sells this unit and the local >guy had already tried getting some from the home office earlier in the year >with no success. > >Are there any builders out there who have solved the problem differently? >I'd hate to waste time hand-building one with a thermostatic sensor and a >relay when I could be building something airworthy.... > >-- Darren >DeLoach Sales & Software >http://www.deloach.com > > > Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:14:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Westlande@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Thermostatic controller? In a message dated 4/21/97 12:58:14 PM, ddeloach@texoma.net (Darren DeLoach) wrote: >I went by the local Radio Shack to check out the thermostatic controller I'd >heard mentioned by a number of builders to control the light bulb inside an >epoxy warming box. Apparently, RS no longers sells this unit and the local >guy had already tried getting some from the home office earlier in the year >with no success. > >Are there any builders out there who have solved the problem differently? >I'd hate to waste time hand-building one with a thermostatic sensor and a >relay when I could be building something airworthy.... > >-- Darren I have had a regular house wall thermostat in my cabinet for years. Works just fine, cost $9 at Home Depot. Keep it simple, save your time for sanding - you'll need it :-). -eric Posted-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:36:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:35:56 -0500 From: Darren DeLoach Subject: Re: COZY: Thermostatic controller? Problem possibly solved inexpensively... My father manages a heating/ac company, he's got a cheap thermostatic switch with a rheostat range adjuster from 50 to 90 degrees which sells for $12, with 2 degree hysteresis (off at 90, on again at 88, for example). If it works well for me, I'll let ya'll know the particulars of the unit. As for the muffin fan, here in Dallas you can get these guys from the local parts shops for a buck or two. Add in two $1 lamp bases and a dollar of electrical cable, and the whole thing should cost less than $20. We'll see... -- Darren DeLoach Sales & Software http://www.deloach.com Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:41:40 -0400 (EDT) From: DFinn7971@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Thermostatic controller? I used a thermometer and dimmer switch. I simply adjusted the dimmer switch once a day till the temperature consistantly read 80 degrees. I find it necessary to readjust the dimmer switch about once or twice a year. The basement is noticibly cooler in the Winter and I have to turn the dimmer up in the Fall and down in the Spring. Its not real sophisticated but it works surprisingly well. Dick Finn From: Ken Reiter Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 17:01:03 CDT Subject: Re: COZY: Thermostatic controller? Hello Guys, My solution is a follows: 1.) Shop temp is about the same during four seasons of the year. If extra cool/cold turn on below earlier. 2.) Use the old three position lamps (remember Grandmother's) place behind pump in form lined box - my box is a small work bench from Sears with a door on the right side. - Select brightness (temp) for the season of the year you are in. Yes, three brightness positions/four seasons - use two bulbs. This has worked very well for several years. Good Luck, Ken Reiter > > I went by the local Radio Shack to check out the thermostatic controller I'd > heard mentioned by a number of builders to control the light bulb inside an > epoxy warming box. Apparently, RS no longers sells this unit and the local > guy had already tried getting some from the home office earlier in the year > with no success. > > Are there any builders out there who have solved the problem differently? > I'd hate to waste time hand-building one with a thermostatic sensor and a > relay when I could be building something airworthy.... > > -- Darren > DeLoach Sales & Software > http://www.deloach.com > > Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:46:43 -0600 (MDT) From: Ron Lee Subject: COZY: Thermostatic Controller Results Earlier I mentioned that the thermometer in my epoxy incubator varies over a 20 degree range. That seems excessive so today I put about 1/3 gallon of water in a plastic jug along with a spa thermometer in the incubator. After several hours, it seems that the water temp has stabilized to a variance of perhaps 2 degrees. Coincidentally, it appears that the temp is close to the temperature set at the controller. Ron Lee From: Howard Calk Subject: RE: COZY: Thermostatic controller? Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:18:18 -0400 This topic has been addressed to death but I'll describe my version I guess b/c you can never have too many options (or can you? ;-)). I bought a line thermostat from Home Depot for approximately $24. Line thermostats are used for electric baseboard heaters and operate at 120 volts AC and require no conversions (US). I then bought a electric box for a light switch to mount the thermostat, a $2 light socket, and a couple feet of Romex. I had some scrape plywood out of which I made a box with doors on the front and lined with Styrofoam insulation. I mounted the thermostat inside the plywood box, and plugged the thermostat into the wall (via a normal outlet plug). I use the line thermostat to turn a light bulb (60 - 75 watts) on and off to heat the inside of the plywood box. Total cost (not including materials I already had): approximately $35. I keep the thermostat set to 70 degrees so I do not have to heat my shop. I keep my epoxy pump and my gallon cans of epoxy in there when I'm not doing a lay-up. When I'm getting ready to do a lay-up, I remove the gallon cans of epoxy and turn up the thermostat to 80 degrees. Do I care if the thermostat keeps the epoxy within 1 or 2 degrees of what I set it? Not really. It works well and is close enough. Howard Calk Long EZ builder Chapters 4-8 and most of 9 completed. -----Original Message----- From: Westlande@aol.com [SMTP:Westlande@aol.com] Sent: Monday, April 21, 1997 4:14 PM To: cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com Subject: Re: COZY: Thermostatic controller? In a message dated 4/21/97 12:58:14 PM, ddeloach@texoma.net (Darren DeLoach) wrote: >I went by the local Radio Shack to check out the thermostatic controller I'd >heard mentioned by a number of builders to control the light bulb inside an >epoxy warming box. Apparently, RS no longers sells this unit and the local >guy had already tried getting some from the home office earlier in the year >with no success. > >Are there any builders out there who have solved the problem differently? >I'd hate to waste time hand-building one with a thermostatic sensor and a >relay when I could be building something airworthy.... > >-- Darren I have had a regular house wall thermostat in my cabinet for years. Works just fine, cost $9 at Home Depot. Keep it simple, save your time for sanding - you'll need it :-). -eric Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 19:59:24 -0700 From: rfisher@spacetech.com Subject: Re: COZY: Thermostatic controller? On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Darren DeLoach wrote: >Are there any builders out there who have solved the problem differently? >I'd hate to waste time hand-building one with a thermostatic sensor and a >relay when I could be building something airworthy.... > One more $.02 worth. I also purchased a line voltage thermostat from a local building supply center, about $11. This is the type used on baseboard heaters and is rated for 240 volts. The standard wall thermostats are generally not rated at more than 24 volts and I would caution their use at 120 V (something about fire really scares me). My box is just about finished, I didn't want to start it until I had my epoxy pump so I could get dimensions from it. I'm building it large enough to hold the pump, a gallon can of resin and a quart of hardener. The extra resin will be used to stabilize the temperature and will also be at the proper temp if my pump runs out in the middle of a layup. I'm using a 120V muffin fan from crap shack, about $14. The lamp base, fuse (that fire thing again) and light switch complete the box. I got some Atlas foam insulation with foil on both sides to line the box and I had one of those digital indoor/outdoor thermometers with min/max memory, so I put the outdoor probe in the box and the indoor side measures my shop temp. This d**n thing got more elaborate the further along I got, but I kept rationalizing that it will serve me for many years, so the extra time was worth it. I built the box at a comfortable working height and decided to enclose the base with plywood and add a shelf and a door so I can store mixing cups, gloves, etc. there and keep them from getting all dusty. Whew! With this kind of anal attention to the resin box, I'm scared that I'll be working on my plane forever! Oh well, building is half the fun. See ya, Russ Fisher Finally got my first order and will start construction as soon as I get this resin box finished. Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 11:50:03 -0500 From: Paul Comte Subject: COZY: Bench Building Materials FYI While looking for materials for my layup bench I came across what is known as a "Counter Top Core". Available from a local supplier to the remodeling trade in .75", 1" and 1.125" thickness. The 30" x 144" pricing for the 1.125" is $29.95. Unless somone posts a reason not to I'm going to buy two of the 1.125" pieces. One I'll rip up the middle to provide me with deep - stiff side frames. Paul. Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:43:25 -0400 (EDT) From: DFinn7971@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Bench Building Materials In a message dated 97-05-08 13:26:14 EDT, pcomte@tcccom.net (Paul Comte) writes: << While looking for materials for my layup bench I came across what is known as a "Counter Top Core". Available from a local supplier to the remodeling trade in .75", 1" and 1.125" thickness. The 30" x 144" pricing for the 1.125" is $29.95 >> Hi Paul, The only downside I can see is that it is 30" wide rather then 48". It seems to me that the bolts of cloth are wider then 30". I'm at work now so I don't have access to a bolt of cloth and a tape or I'd be more definite. I think you might find it hard to unroll and cut the cloth on a narrow table. As a suggestion, you might try buying a sheet and a half of standard 4'x8' particle board and tacking 1/8" masonite on it. After you spill epoxy on it you can just sand it down. Every year or so you can replace the masonite for about $10.00. Dick Finn Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 20:14:47 -0400 (EDT) From: AlWick@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Bench Building Materials In a message dated 97-05-08 13:26:11 EDT, pcomte@tcccom.net (Paul Comte) writes: << While looking for materials for my layup bench I came across what is known as a "Counter Top Core". Available from a local supplier to the remodeling trade in .75", 1" and 1.125" thickness. The 30" x 144" pricing for the 1.125" is $29.95. Unless somone posts a reason not to I'm going to buy two of the 1.125" pieces. One I'll rip up the middle to provide me with deep - stiff side frames. >> Just recommend you are very thorough in reinforcing the top with ribs. Over the years the top can develop a sag. -al From: "Frank" Subject: Re: COZY: Moving Advice! Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:03:57 -0400 in a two > car garage with a single door and have been spoiled in terms of being able > to push the plane in and out as desired. > Has anyone else had to deal with this or have any ideas? Any > recommendations (short of turning down the jobs - we really are looking > forward to moving to the area) would be appreciated! > Gregg Perry > Jackson, TN > take the two doors out and put in one big one. thats what I had to do. Not to mention tear out the in side of the barn to build a shop. good luck withe the new job. heck if we can build a plane we can handle a garage door. Date: Mon, 12 May 97 08:16:16 EST From: MISTER@neesnet.com Subject: Re: COZY: Moving Advice! G. Perry wrote "It seems that most of the homes in the area use multiple 9' garage doors even if they have a three car garage. Currently I have the project in a two car garage with a single door and have been spoiled in terms of being able to push the plane in and out as desired." I had this problem while building my 3 place COzy in a two car garage with 9' doors. What I did was to make some dollys with 4 small castering wheels on them. I would place these under the tires on the main gear and then carefully extract the airplane from the garage. It was a delicate operation but very doable with the help of one or two other people. I did do it alone on a couple of occasions but I wouldn't recommend doing that. My $.02 Bob Misterka N342RM ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: COZY: Moving Advice! Author: gperry@usit.com at INTERNET Date: 5/11/97 1:06 PM My wife and I recently accepted new jobs in Morristown, TN. Over the next couple of months, we'll be packing up our household and a Cozy Mark IV (Aerocanard) that is mostly complete constructionwise (no engine or finishing yet). This past weekend, we went to Morristown to look for a place to live. It seems that most of the homes in the area use multiple 9' garage doors even if they have a three car garage. Currently I have the project in a two car garage with a single door and have been spoiled in terms of being able to push the plane in and out as desired. Has anyone else had to deal with this or have any ideas? Any recommendations (short of turning down the jobs - we really are looking forward to moving to the area) would be appreciated! Gregg Perry Jackson, TN by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-7 #17060) with SMTP id <01IIS0J8CXCE9JEREG@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Mon, 12 May 1997 09:48:55 EST Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:45:24 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: Moving Advice! Organization: AEROCAD INC. MISTER@neesnet.com wrote: > What I did was to make some dollys with 4 small castering wheels on > them. I would place these under the tires on the main gear and then > carefully extract the airplane from the garage. It was a delicate > operation but very doable with the help of one or two other people. I > did do it alone on a couple of occasions but I wouldn't recommend > doing that. That will work fine with a 3 place Cozy but not a 4 with a 11'-6" spar with strakes that Gregg has. I have fit into a 10' paint room door using wheel dollies, but it was almost to tight to make through. A nine foot door won't work unless tilting with angle while moving it and most people will want to do this by them selves. Frank said make the 2 single doors into a double door. Works for me. Cost it out Gregg, you might be glad you did. -- AeroCad Inc. Jeff Russell (Check out our web site for Cozy compatible parts and the AeroCanard) phone/ call first for fax 910-961-2238 E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com web site with NEW pictures under heavy construction: http://www.aerocad.com Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:59:39 -0400 (EDT) From: gperry@usit.com Subject: COZY: Moving Advice! Thanks to everyone who offered their thoughts on trying to get a Cozy Mark IV in and out of a single car garage door. It looks like the consensus is to try to take out a pillar so as to put in one large garage door. I don't know if this is structurally practical but I plan on getting the advice of a contractor when I go back to look at more properties. Maybe no "easy" fix for this problem but at least I know the direction to move foward in. Thanks again... Gregg Perry (soon to be) Morristown, TN Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:26:04 -0400 (EDT) From: DFinn7971@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Moving Advice! In a message dated 97-05-12 12:11:31 EDT, gperry@usit.com writes: << It looks like the consensus is to try to take out a pillar so as to put in one large garage door. >> I saw a two door garage with a similar piller in the middle that had been made removable. I'm sure it involved replacing the header so as to span the double width door. In addition, I probably involved some inventive work on the door tracks. As I remember it everything was removable, not hinged. with the exception of the header I suspect it would not be a horribly big job. Dick Finn Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:42:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Bill Jackson Subject: COZY: heaters Greetings Everyone, Since the list is a bit slow today I thought I would try to get some opinions on types of heaters for use in a garage. I intend to insulate and drywall my detached two-car garage and run a gas line out for a heater. I've seen several used furnaces advertized for shop use, some are hanging versions and at least one was a gas fired unvented radiant type. My brother has put a radiant type in his garage and uses it to keep his 3-car attached garage at around 40 degrees farenheit in central Illinois. He mentioned a potential for condensation with this type as there is moisture in natural gas. Also I am concerned about possible warping of built surfaces from this type heater as its supposed to warmobjects and not the air directly. This type heater is very efficient but I don'tknow if its capable of warming the space to 70+. I would think a forced air heater would present a fire hazard with dust and organic vapors (MEK etc.). Anyway, just curious how many people are working out of a garage and what you may be using for heat. Also, I may be doing the bulkheads and fuselage sides in my basement if I don't get the garage set up this season. Is there any potential fire hazard with the epoxies we use (AeroPoxy)? Bill Jackson jackson@sierra.cecer.army.mil From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: heaters (fwd) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 97 16:05:21 EDT Bill Jackson writes; >Since the list is a bit slow today........ Everyone's off building airplanes, I bet :-). >...... I thought I would try to get some opinions >on types of heaters for use in a garage. OK, now here's a perfect example of a topic that we've discussed in relative detail. The archives for '95 and '96 have (I believe) large discussions of how to heat workshops. I'm not trying to stifle discussion here - if someone has something new to add, by all means do so, but there are probably 150 - 200 people that have seen this discussion go by in the past. Send email to: majordomo@hpwarhw.an.hp.com with the lines: get cozy_builders topics95/workshop.txt get cozy_builders topics96/workshop.txt get cozy_builders topics/workshop.txt end This will retrieve all files regarding workshops - I believe this was where I filed the discussions. Bill, just so you don't think I'm trying to give you a hard time, I've reiterated my thinking on this matter below :-). >I would think a forced air heater would present a fire hazard with dust and >organic vapors (MEK etc.). Maybe. I used a kerosene heater in an enclosed space when building my Q2 - maybe I was just real lucky, but I don't think the concentration of vapors ever gets high enough to be an issue without having killed you first. >Anyway, just curious how many people are working out of a garage and what you >may be using for heat. I've heated workspaces with kerosene and electric space heaters. Others have used propane. As far as I can tell, just about everything will work OK (electric is EXPENSIVE) and is a matter of taste and cost. Radiant heaters should NOT be aimed directly at layups from close up - gets WAY too hot. >Also, I may be doing the bulkheads and fuselage sides in my basement if I don't >get the garage set up this season. Is there any potential fire hazard with the >epoxies we use (AeroPoxy)? People have mentioned this possibility before - if you have enough venting in your basement so that you don't keel over from the fumes, I think the fire hazard from your oil/gas burner is minuscule. Again, I've never had any problem in this situation using either 2427 or SPII with an oil burner and electric space heaters going. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: Lee Devlin Subject: Re: COZY: heaters Date: Tue, 9 Sep 97 16:31:08 MDT > He mentioned a potential for condensation with > this type as there is moisture in natural gas. It's not the moisture in the gas that causes condensation, it's that all hydrocarbon fuels are converted to water and CO2 when they are burned. With a vented furnace, the products of combustion exit through a chimney and the heat is extracted via a heat exchanger. An unvented funace requires you to provide exchange air to the space being heated so as to not fill it full of CO2, H2O, and carbon monoxide and so you don't run out of oxygen for yourself. I use a dual element 24,000 BTU/hr propane heater in my garage to bring the temperature up to 70+F. This is a relatively inexpensive ($80) heater that just attaches to a propane bottle. I also use a pair of electric heaters (5,000 BTU/hr.) to keep the garage at temperature. Even though heating a shop is expensive, you can keep the cost down if you limit the heating to a warm-up period and to the time you're actually working on the plane. After completing a layup in the garage in the winter, I cover it with plastic and place a space heater under it until cured. Lee Devlin Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:33:40 -0600 From: pilot@xmission.com (Dave Chapman) Subject: Re: COZY: heaters > >Anyway, just curious how many people are working out of a garage and what you >may be using for heat. > I have a propane construction heater (about the size of a canister vacuum cleaner) in my garage and it works quite well. Sometimes too well... It is a 250,000 btu heater and requires a deft touch on the gas valve to prevent it from running me out of the garage. The garage is a two car (I can get one wing and the canard on at at time) and I insulated the door with aluminum backed foam. For small layups, after glassing I "tent" the layup and put in a small electric heater with a thermostat (its called a Big Heat heater and is about 7" square) and in the morning the layup is cured. I refill my 10 gallon propane tank about every 4 months. Dave Dave Chapman (Pilot@xmission.com) "This is USHGA #5742 a spiritual calling to Park City, Utah set one's soul free by flight...." (801) 647-0319 http://www.xmission.com/~pilot Cozy 3 on gear, with the engine on, in other words, 80% done and 80% to go... ***************************************************************************** The box said 'Requires Windows 95, or better.' So I bought a Macintosh. ***************************************************************************** Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:33 -0500 From: "Vance, John" Subject: RE: COZY: heaters -----Original Message-----From: Bill Jackson I'm sure there is much info in archives, but I sitting here waiting for a vendor's call so ... = types of heaters for use in a garage. I intend to insulate and drywall my = detached two-car garage and run a gas line out for a heater. I did this in my current house and am very happy with the broad range of uses I get out of it. Used a cheap ($250) 50k btu forced air gas furnace (not worried about efficiency as not a full time heated living space) enclosed (and raised 18" off the floor) in one corner of the garage with outside air source for combustion. The bad part about this is it is taking time away from building your plane - the good part is it is versatile space for projects. = I would think a forced air heater would present a fire hazard with dust and = organic vapors (MEK etc.). I'm not an expert, but was more worried about solvents, foam and wood dust. I occasionally work on cars (have a Porsche 924 with completely rebuilt mechanicals for sale ...) and woodworking. =Also, I may be doing the bulkheads and fuselage sides in my basement if I =don't =get the garage set up this season. Is there any potential fire hazard with the =epoxies we use (AeroPoxy)? That's what/where I did mine many years ago with a coal stove as primary heat (kept a good distance away) and electric aux with no problems. Main thing in my mind is to enjoy what you are doing, and do what you feel good about. John Vance Cozy 3, still on chapter 13 .-) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:27:41 -0400 From: David Domeier Subject: Re: COZY: heaters Bill, I had an electric furnace installed at ceiling level for about $900. It works very well, although it would work much better if I would insilate. The numero one advantage is no flue required. dd Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:41:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Tom Brusehaver Subject: Re: COZY: heaters I think the important part missing in the discussion about heaters is location. Having lived in Central Illinios, I know the winters aren't as harsh as they are up here in Minneapolis. I remember a couple years ago an aquaintance from the bay area and I were discussing houses, and heating, and price of gas. He asked what I was paying a month to heat my house and I told him, then he said "that is about what I am paying...do you insulate your walls?". I guess in the bay area insulation is only a relativly modern revelation. Yes, in January in Minneapolis it'll take a 250,000BTU heater to keep a 2 car garage warm enough to work in. But probably in Central Illinois a 40,000BTU heater will work as well. Electric heaters will break you in Minnesota, but are probably fine in Texas. Thanks. From: Epplin John A Subject: RE: COZY: heaters Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:13:47 -0500 [Epplin John A] I built a new garage-shop last year so had the opportunity to set it up as I wanted it. It is 24 X 36 with 10 ft. high ceiling. I insulated the walls with standard fiberglass bats and blew 12 in. of glass in the ceiling. The doors are foam core steel with good seals installed all around them. I installed a 100 k BTU propane fired hanging space heater which works well except the price of propane went bonkers last winter. The moisture problem mentioned on an earlier post was also mentioned in the operating instructions for the heater. They said not to operate the unit with a thermostat setting less than 50 deg F. I bought a cheap electronic thermostat that turned out to be a mistake. The programmability of the unit was not addressable by the day. If you wanted to set it up for Saturday morning you had to do it sometime Friday, then reset it if you did not want it to warm up the next day also. You might consider a good set-back thermostat that is easily changeable for you routine. Also, I paid a few bucks extra for electric ignition. My reasoning was that it is easy to turn off the unit if you are going to generate a hazard and if it is also easy to restart it, you might be more inclined to shut it off if there is any question. I am in northern Illinois and the 100 k Btu is quite adequate, it brings the temp up quickly on even 0- days. I put in a ceiling fan that is well worth it. It keeps the temp even when the heater blower is not running, just let it run low to medium whenever you are working. My .02 John Epplin Mk4 #467 > From: AlWick@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: COZY: heaters In a message dated 97-09-09 15:46:36 EDT, jackson@sierra.cecer.army.mil writes: << I would think a forced air heater would present a fire hazard with dust and organic vapors (MEK etc.). >> Just about done with my plane (well, sorta) and have never used such chemicals. You don't need to clean brushes, just wrap in saran and pop in freezer. Works great. I've only used about 25 brushes over the years. Only time I need to replace one is when I am so happy to be done with layup, I forget to pop brush in freezer. FWIW -al From: "Johnson, Phillip" Subject: COZY: Heaters Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:58:57 -0400 John Epplin Wrote: > I built a new garage-shop last year so had the opportunity to > set it up as I wanted it. It is 24 X 36 with 10 ft. high ceiling. I > insulated the walls with standard fiberglass bats and blew 12 in. of > glass in the ceiling. The doors are foam core steel with good seals > installed all around them. I installed a 100 k BTU propane fired > hanging space heater which works well except the price of propane went > bonkers last winter. Are you sure that you are airtight. My house, in Canada is 2300 square feet and uses 20kW electric heat. I get to about 80% duty cycle (16 kW or 55,000 BThU's per hr) when the temperature is -33 degrees C outside and 22 degrees C inside. i.e. 55 degrees C temp difference (88 degrees F difference) and a light wind. I don't think that my house is particularly special, so you might want to check for any leaks. I found that the slightest leaks make a big difference. Consider plugging all your wall sockets, that makes a difference too, since in many of the backing boxes are on the back side of the vapour barrier. This provides an air leak to the interior. Good Luck. Phillip Johnson Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:28:22 -0500 From: Ian Douglas Organization: WTC Subject: COZY: Work Table Anyone have a good design that gives good torsional stability on their work table. We made on that is basically a box with 1"x10" perimeter (per plans) and find that it is not strong enough. Before I start adding cross braces all over the place I thought it might be a good idea to check with this group. I am using saw horses under the table for the legs, with screw adjustable feet for level. -- Ian D.S. Douglas MK0069 From: "norm & monda" Subject: Re: COZY: Work Table Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:39:53 -0500 my work bench is 4'X12' the frame is 2X4's and the legs are also 2X4's as well there is a middle shelf (full size) and its frame is also 2X4's, the top is 3/4" thick plywood, (we used 3/4" particle board at first but it was to flexable) the table is as stabe as can be. the only problem is if we want to move it we need to use a hydraulic jack on wheels to lift it so it can be rolled around. norm & monda cozy IV #202 From: Lee Devlin Subject: Re: COZY: Work Table Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 11:28:41 MST The best material I've found for a work table supports are the floor joist 'I' beams. They are unlikely to warp, which is the major problem I had with the 1x10 design shown in the plans. See the archives from '95 for more info on this. I also use a few loose 'I' beam sections to span cross-wise which prevents the table from sagging between the side supports. Building it in two sections will make it possible to move it around when the time comes. My two-section table is supported with 4 saw horses. Lee Devlin > Anyone have a good design that gives good torsional stability on their > work table. We made on that is basically a box with 1"x10" perimeter > (per plans) and find that it is not strong enough. Before I start > adding cross braces all over the place I thought it might be a good idea > to check with this group. I am using saw horses under the table for the > legs, with screw adjustable feet for level. > -- > Ian D.S. Douglas > MK0069 > From: DFinn7971@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:57:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: COZY: Work Table In a message dated 97-10-27 10:31:50 EST, douglas@ibm.net writes: << Anyone have a good design that gives good torsional stability on their work table. We made on that is basically a box with 1"x10" perimeter (per plans) and find that it is not strong enough. >> I built my table as a torsion box. I used straight 2x4's on 16" centers for the framing and glued/nailed 1/2" particle board to both sides. I then added 1/8" Masonite to the top. When the top gets lumpy with beads of epoxy I just take the belt sander to it. Every year or so I invest $7 in fresh Masonite. The monster weighs a ton! I did some cutouts on the bottom of the table for legs and bolted them on. To increase the storage in my shop I also built a full size shelf under the table for foam and etc. storage. Early in the game when I was assembling the fuselage I replaced the full size legs with 8" long legs. This provided a nice flat/level surface for assembling the fuselage. Dick Finn From: ponciroli@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:08:46 -0500 Subject: Re: COZY: Work Table Ian - I built two 3'x8' work benches with 4"x4" legs that are on lockable casters. The top is built with a 1"x4" monococ frame that acts as an armature for stifffening. I put the stiffeners along the sides and one down the middle with connecting pieces set from the middle to the edge at about one foot intervals. The 1/2" plywood was then glued and power nailed to the top and bottom of the armature stiffenesr. The remaining 1'x8' plywood is put on as a skirt for ridgidizing the whole table with the legs. I can use the benches alone or as a unit as I am now doing in constructing the wings. Hope this helps Don Ponciroli (860) 464-1158 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:03:08 -0500 From: Ian Douglas Organization: WTC Subject: Re: COZY: Work Table Hi All, Thanks for the inputs. I downloaded a number of the archives and believe I have a table design that should work. I liked the idea of having two pieces so I am going to have an 8' with 4' extension. I will use dowel alignment with a turnbuckle clamp arrangement that will allow me to split the table. I will still use saw horses for the legs as they already work well. I will keep the top and bottom and then dowel and glue cross braces on 2' centres using the 10x1 with 2x4 caps (a composite I beam arrangement) for stength. ---- ------------------------- | | || | | | | | | || | | | | | | || | | | | | | || | | | | | | || | | | | ------------------------- ---- ^ | Dowel and turnbuckle to join two pieces. -- Ian D.S. Douglas TEL (613) 599-5046 Director of Technology CEL (613) 724-6382 Workplace Technologies Corporation FAX (613) 764-3280 135 Michael Cowpland Drive INET douglas@ibm.net Kanata, Ont. Canada K2M-2E9 From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:04:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Work Table Screw the top down with bugle head (drywall) screws, screw the whole thing together, can dissasemble for moving, turn top over after you beatup one side. And don't forget duplex electrical outlets, 2 each side, and one each end. Use adjustable (screw in/out) glides to level and get rid of that short leg. After leveling mark the floor, so when you move it, just move back and its level. Whenever jigging wings, etc table should be very flat an level. Before putting top on, level the butting surfaces by planing, sanding, until your 4' level says level everywhere. From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:08:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Work Table Don't like 2 pieces bench, can't hold alignment, etc. Same with casters, there will times (drilling wing attach holes) when you will be exerting considerable horizontal loads on bench. From: DFinn7971@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:21:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: COZY: Work Table In a message dated 97-10-29 03:00:51 EST, cdenk@ix.netcom.com writes: << Don't like 2 pieces bench, can't hold alignment, etc. Same with casters, there will times (drilling wing attach holes) when you will be exerting considerable horizontal loads on bench. >> Carl makes a good point but I think I have a work around. I built also built a two piece bench and so far have had no problems. I think it has a lot to do with design and materials. I built a torsion box (as mentioned in an earlier post) for both sections of the top. I then used a number of carriage bolts to hold the two pieces together. This, in itself was fairly sturdy. The key was that I also built a shelf under the table. The shelf was two pieces (4x8 & 4x4) just like the top. However, I swapped the location of the 4x8 shelf so it was under the 4x4 top section. This provided additional strength. I finished up by using eight 2x4 legs. The legs were actually two 2x4's edge nailed and glued together. The table was then leveled (obviously). I still periodically check it for level. I have experienced no problems with horizontal loads knocking things out of position. In fact, the son of a gun is so heavy that moving it is a major operation requiring a number of people. I would agree 100% with Carl if you are using a light weight table or are supporting it on saw horses you probably should not go with a two piece table. Dick Finn Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 09:58:45 -0500 From: Ian Douglas Organization: WTC Subject: COZY: Space Heaters Hi All, Table is built and solid as a rock. I bought a karosene space heater (Reddy) and it works very well. My question is... Does the moisture created when buring Propane pose a problem? A friend of mine says that he ended up with a moisture soaked garage (water running down the windows) when using propane. How much fresh air is required in the work space when using karosene, I am concerned about CO2 emissions and I also notice that the humidty level tends to rise while using the heater. The instructions say I have to have the door raised 6" ( a little less since the door is wider 10.5') this allows far too much air flow through the garage (when the temp drops to -30C or -40C, I'll be freezing for sure). My garage / work shop is 22' x 46' and I have the 35,000 BTU heater. I am considering changing it for the 150,000 BTU propane model (depending on moisture problems). -- Ian D.S. Douglas MK0069 From: Epplin John A Subject: RE: COZY: Space Heaters Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:16:23 -0600 > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian Douglas [SMTP:douglas@ibm.net] > Sent: Monday, November 03, 1997 8:59 AM > To: Cozy MK IV Builders > Subject: COZY: Space Heaters > > Hi All, > > Table is built and solid as a rock. I bought a karosene space heater > (Reddy) and it works very well. My question is... Does the moisture > created when buring Propane pose a problem? A friend of mine says > that > he ended up with a moisture soaked garage (water running down the > windows) when using propane. > > How much fresh air is required in the work space when using karosene, > I > am concerned about CO2 emissions and I also notice that the humidty > level tends to rise while using the heater. The instructions say I > have > to have the door raised 6" ( a little less since the door is wider > 10.5') this allows far too much air flow through the garage (when the > temp drops to -30C or -40C, I'll be freezing for sure). > > My garage / work shop is 22' x 46' and I have the 35,000 BTU heater. > I > am considering changing it for the 150,000 BTU propane model > (depending > on moisture problems). > -- > Ian D.S. Douglas > MK0069 [Epplin John A] Anytime you burn propane or kerosene you will have water and CO2. The water is a nuisance but the CO2 can be hazardous to you well being. My garage / shop is 24 x 36 with 10 ft ceiling. I use a 100000 Btu propane space heater that has a normal flue vent so there is no problem. I would suggest you try for the same, natural gas if possible as it is usually less money. This would be a permanent installation rather than a portable heater and cost more up front but at least you have a good chance of staying warm and living long enough to enjoy your garage/shop. The reason for the 100k heater is quick warm up as I do not leave the heat on, only when working or after a lay-up it can be left on overnight. It gets about -20 here worst case and I think 35k would be enough if left on or you didn't mind a long warm-up. Using non-vented heaters, except electric, scares me. Have fun and be safe! John epplin Mk4 #467 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:46:59 -0500 (EST) From: Ernie Filippini Subject: COZY: Workplace Heating > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian Douglas [SMTP:douglas@ibm.net] > Sent: Monday, November 03, 1997 8:59 AM > To: Cozy MK IV Builders > Subject: COZY: Space Heaters > > Hi All, > > Table is built and solid as a rock. I bought a karosene space heater > (Reddy) and it works very well. My question is... Does the moisture > created when buring Propane pose a problem? A friend of mine says > that > he ended up with a moisture soaked garage (water running down the > windows) when using propane. > > How much fresh air is required in the work space when using karosene, > I > am concerned about CO2 emissions and I also notice that the humidty > level tends to rise while using the heater. The instructions say I > have > to have the door raised 6" ( a little less since the door is wider > 10.5') this allows far too much air flow through the garage (when the > temp drops to -30C or -40C, I'll be freezing for sure). > > My garage / work shop is 22' x 46' and I have the 35,000 BTU heater. > I > am considering changing it for the 150,000 BTU propane model > (depending > on moisture problems). > -- > Ian D.S. Douglas > MK0069 Ian, I've used my garage for woodworking for a number of years. I've had the same problems using my 50,000 B.T.U. propane jet heater. It works great but I've always been concerned about the cumulative effects of the residual fumes it leaves. Now that I'm going to start building my Cozy in the near future I decided to get away from that type of heat because I'll be spending much more time in my 20'X 20'garage. I decided, and am now setting up, electrical radiant heaters from my ceiling. I've installed an electrical circuit breaker box in my garage to power outlets for the heaters and additional lighting. The heaters are 3-1500 watt quartz heaters that are switchable to 750 watts. I understand they are very effective because they heat up objects, like the garage floor, that in turn heat the air. I'm sure natural gas would be cheaper but I don't have any access to it here. I'll let you know how well they work when my installation is complete in a couple of days. Ernie Filippini ernest39@idt.net From: Glen Whittaker Subject: RE: COZY: Space Heaters Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:22:40 -0600 Organization: The Boeing Conmpany -----Original Message----- From: Ian Douglas [SMTP:douglas@ibm.net] Sent: Monday, November 03, 1997 8:59 AM To: Cozy MK IV Builders Subject: COZY: Space Heaters Hi All, Table is built and solid as a rock. I bought a karosene space heater (Reddy) and it works very well. My question is... Does the moisture created when buring Propane pose a problem? A friend of mine says that he ended up with a moisture soaked garage (water running down the windows) when using propane. How much fresh air is required in the work space when using karosene, I am concerned about CO2 emissions and I also notice that the humidty level tends to rise while using the heater. The instructions say I have to have the door raised 6" ( a little less since the door is wider 10.5') this allows far too much air flow through the garage (when the temp drops to -30C or -40C, I'll be freezing for sure). My garage / work shop is 22' x 46' and I have the 35,000 BTU heater. I am considering changing it for the 150,000 BTU propane model (depending on moisture problems). -- Ian D.S. Douglas MK0069 [Glen Whittaker] Ian, I use a Reddy variable propane heater with a range of 30,000 to 65,000 BTU's in my basement. So far, I can work comfortably using the 30,000 BTU setting. Moisture is not a problem because I have a dehumidifier running in the shop. I avoided the kerosene heaters because I didn't care for the smell and they seem to leave some type of film over everything. As far a ventilation goes, the manual says that you need to have at least a 1.5 cubic foot opening for fresh air. Glen Whittaker Cozy MK IV #0563 From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:46:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Space heating Nearly all building codes require mounting heaters with hot elements and flame at least 3 feet above garage floors, with good practice to be much higher, since flammable vapors are heavier than air they congregate first near the floor, and then the tops get higher. Direct vent also work well. I use Vanguard (formerly Suburban) direct vent minature gas furnaces. 40,000 BTU, 85% efficiency, electronic ignition, fans both for ventilation and combustion air. They install thru the wall like a small window air conditioner. Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:16:47 -0500 From: John B Vermeylen Subject: Re: COZY: Space Heaters Ian Douglas wrote: > Hi All, > > Table is built and solid as a rock. I bought a karosene space heater > (Reddy) and it works very well. My question is... Does the moisture > created when buring Propane pose a problem? A friend of mine says that > he ended up with a moisture soaked garage (water running down the > windows) when using propane. > > How much fresh air is required in the work space when using karosene, I > am concerned about CO2 emissions and I also notice that the humidty > level tends to rise while using the heater. The instructions say I have > to have the door raised 6" ( a little less since the door is wider > 10.5') this allows far too much air flow through the garage (when the > temp drops to -30C or -40C, I'll be freezing for sure). > > My garage / work shop is 22' x 46' and I have the 35,000 BTU heater. I > am considering changing it for the 150,000 BTU propane model (depending > on moisture problems). > -- > Ian D.S. Douglas > MK0069 It was mentioned sometime last year that kerosene heaters were not the preferred heating system of choice. The concern is with the residue given off plating on the surface of our work. Propane is better, which is what I use, and the moisture is not a problem if you have some ventilation. I have a small exhaust fan installed in my garage wall that I run when the propane is burning. This has control over the moisture and fresh air.N69CZ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 23:08:27 -0800 From: C Van Hoof Organization: Architect Subject: COZY: Space heating Hi to all, If you guys are talking about electrical heaters, hanging them from the ceiling is not so "hot" :-) - we don't go much for this since it really seems to heat the ceiling void over... Hot air rises, how about considering some type of skirting heater. Should the temps come down low in the room , you could build a "tent" over the worked part...ducting the skirting heated air... We sometimes use the ceiling void as a starting point (supply area) for getting "fresh air" which we then heat further thru an electric fan in a duct. Sorry can't be of more help - just thinking - your problems are interesting. The sun seems to always shine in Africa, the temps you mention scare me. :-) Chris #219 in chapter 09 From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Re: COZY: Space Heaters (fwd) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 97 10:25:14 EST John B Vermeylen writes (sans signature :-) ); >It was mentioned sometime last year that kerosene heaters were not the >preferred heating system of choice. The concern is with the residue given >off plating on the surface of our work. IIRC (If I Remember Correctly), it was mentioned that there was a _concern_ regarding residue with kerosene heaters. No one actually reported ever having a problem with them, or even knowing someone who did. Personally (as the archives mention) I used a kerosene heater while building my Q2 - never had any residue problems whatsoever, and used it to heat my space while painting the Q2. I never had any problems with adhesion, fish-eyes, or anything that could be attributed to contamination. >...... Propane is better, which is what I >use, and the moisture is not a problem if you have some ventilation. I have >a small exhaust fan installed in my garage wall that I run when the propane >is burning. This has control over the moisture and fresh air.N69CZ Certainly propane does not have the residue concern of kerosene, but I wouldn't say that kerosene has a problem - only that there's a potential problem that never seems to have manifested itself. At any rate, if you don't have a heater, get a propane one and then you won't have to worry one way or the other :-). -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: "Michael Anderson" Subject: COZY: Space Heaters Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:21:28 -0500 Speaking of propane heaters, I am in the process of builder a new house (with 3 car garage, 1 part car and 2 part plane). Our house will be heated by natural gas, is there any type of space heaters that could be hooked up to a gas stub-outlet? I was contemplating on have a gas stub-outlet in the garage similar to the one on the back patio for a grill. Michael Anderson mikej@nortel.ca Cozy #484, Chapter 9 Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 14:32:57 -0600 From: Paul Comte Subject: Re: COZY: Space Heaters Michael Anderson wrote: > > Speaking of propane heaters, I am in the process of builder a new house > (with 3 car garage, 1 part car and 2 part plane). Our house will be > heated by natural gas, is there any type of space heaters that could be > hooked up to a gas stub-outlet? I was contemplating on have a gas > stub-outlet in the garage similar to the one on the back patio for a > grill. > > Michael Anderson > mikej@nortel.ca > Cozy #484, Chapter 9 A good friend installed a industrial style space heater in the loft of his new insulated garage/workshop. It is out of the way and works very well. He does have a few 20 inch box fans hung between the rafters to move the warmer air down from the loft. While this "ducting" could be improved it is a vast improvement over the kero heater shop that he had before. Going for jugs of fuel becomes a bit of a burden. If you have the good fortune to install a system fed from city gas you will save time and probably money over the course of this project. Another friend who is a heating contractor mentioned that several low cost furnaces are now available. These do not offer the best efficiency but are priced in the $300 to $400 range. He described them as furnaces for inexpensive ranch homes (whatever that means...). -- Best Regards, Paul Comte A Plus Computer Service, LLC. 5100 West Blue Mound Road Milwaukee, WI 53208-3654 (414) 456-9700 Voice (414) 456-9701 Fax Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 17:45:11 -0500 From: Ian Douglas Organization: WTC Subject: Re: COZY: Space Heaters Thanks all, I have swapped the 35K BTU kerosene heater for a 50K BTU propane job (cost only $11.00 more), due to the concerns over karosene films and CO2. It would appear that a couple of inspectors have the same view on karosene and I therefore may have had a more difficult time with inspections... Now I can get back to my shear webs... -- Ian D.S. Douglas MK0069 From: SMilesCozy@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:15:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: COZY: Space Heaters In a message dated 97-11-04 13:26:35 EST, you write: > I was contemplating on have a gas > stub-outlet in the garage similar to the one on the back patio for a > grill. > Michael Anderson That would work out fine, you can probably find a small (20,000 - 50,000 btuh) unit heater, ( hangs from ceiling, has fan and louvers) or furnace, (free standing with a plenum and minimal ductwork.) for a reasonable price. Installing the flashing and venting it through the roof is no big deal. Either way is safe and practicle, just depends on wether you have more floor space or ceiling space, and wether or not you may add air conditioning. Hope this helps, Steve Miles From: Bes1612@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:35:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: COZY: portable work table Hi everyone; I have some wallpapering tables that really come in handy for cutting glass, or some other light work, or just for plans. They are portable, very compact and quick and cheep to build. I made mine of bifold doors. Probably 25-30 dollars each. Comercial wallpaper comes in 27", or 54" widths, so I have two 30 inch tables. Perfect to set up, cut glass, and get it out of the way for more work space. The legs can be of corse anything from two buckets with a 2 x 4 over them, to some very compact wallpaper trellises. They are about 40 bucks a pare at wallpaper supply store, but fold up to a 2x4 size, and are adjustable in highth. A foldable sawhorse would work just as well. Anyway, thought this would be worth sharing. (for what its worth.) Bob. plans #588 From: "Boykin Ed (C)" Subject: COZY: building in a smaller space than anyone Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:26:59 -0500 Well folks, I have been agonizing over where/how to start the CozyMkIv in my small apartment and have finished the first step in this process the thinking part. Now I jsut need to implement and I can get started with my Cozy. Since I live in an apartment, space is very abviously a problem. I also have a roomate and I wont even ask him if I can build in the living room. We've been friends for 15 years and I jsut don't think it's proper. This leaves my balcony as the only location for building. It is only about 12' x 12' but it is the best I can do. Another problem is that this balcony is not enclosed.This presents the problem of contaminating any glass layups I do with dust or moisture. NOT a good thing. I talked to my landlord about building a plastic sheet enclosure to seal it off and they more or less laughed at me. I didn't expect them to approve it. What I will do then is buils a temporary shelter out of PVC tubing and sheet plastic. I was thinking of making a top frame out of pvc with larger tubes over the frame. These larger tubes will let me roll-up the plastic and 'hide' it from the landlords. The frame would be cvoered at the top also. I could drop the walls and the quickly tape the corners to make a seal. Any better sugestion are appreciated) With this space I won't be able to build any of the larger foam/glass components but I fell I can still build most of the smaller ones. Inside if my little 'clean room' I will have a small worktable about 4x4. Once again not worrying about larger pieces so I can get away with a smaller table. There is alocal EAA chapter near me with a Cozy builder and some good EAA techincal advisros that I wil consult on all of this before I actually implemtn any of it. I am hoping that through this EAA chapter I can also gain access to some of the more costly tools I might need since I wont have space for them anyway;hoever, for my limited building I probably wont need anything amjor for a long time. I have pretty much setteld on this as my plan of attack for my workspace but welcome any suggestions on how to do it better. Now that this is done I can begin my next step in teh planning. I am going to start going through every chapter and selecting every piece of foam that I can cut and glass that will fit on my little table. I don't want to just cut foam it does't get at least partially glassed in the near future. This is to reduce the risks of damaging the raw foam piece during the long wait for better quarters.. Pieces like this include the bulkheads, strake pieces, nose pieces, etc, etc... Anywway, there it is.... Ed Boykin Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:49:21 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Brusehaver Subject: Re: COZY: building in a smaller space than anyone I'll never discourage anyone. About 4 years ago, I almost started building the Cozy. One of the guys in our local EAA chapter talked me out of it, "Nat's got CG problems". Well the CG testing was done, and the EAA'r still said "you don't want to build it". He, being older, and had actually built something (Q2), I thought I'd hold off and look around. In those 4 years he built an RV-6 and is flying off the 40hours now, I got mad and said "what's wrong with the Cozy", turns out he doesn't like working with glass, and has developped a reaction. He wanted me to buy half of his finished RV. Well, I want to build something. So now that he is done, I am finally building. Build what you can where ever your space is. I too have a space problem. People told me to order all I could in one shot. Well I had a couple thousand cash, so I bought a lot, and well, I don't really have room to store that much stuff. Sure it'll cost less to ship it (maybe?) but if your storage space costs more than shipping..., you decide. There is a stage between start and finish where you need about twice the space as towards finished. Somewhere to store all the raw materials (foam, and glass is only part of it, there is also mixing cups, stir sticks, micro, flox, boxes, and other misc stuff), will be necessary. I might suggest a second smaller table/shelf/storage unit. Something to put the epoxy pump/balance on. The shelf will let you store extra tools, supplies, epoxy, and having it on wheels will allow you to move it to a convient place. Having enough raw materials is really an issue. I thought I had enough epoxy to be comfortable, but ordered a couple more gallons anticipating the layup of the inside of the fuselage (along with other stuff), where I would definatly need more. Well, the first week went by, and I got most of the stuff I ordered. The next week some wood that I ordered showed up. Now I was ready for the layup, but I maybe had less than half a gallon of epoxy, and it was backordered for about 2 weeks!. It finally showed up last night, and I did they layup. I ordered (even extra) in what I thought was enough time, but it didn't happen. Now I'll never not order epoxy when I have only one gallon sitting at home (at least until I am comfortable that I won't need more than one :-). From: Jim Hocut Subject: COZY: building in a smaller space than anyone Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:35:13 -0800 > Doing just about anything fun in an apartment can be a drag, but > there's always a way. (I once used rain gutters as a ham radio > antenna, not the most efficient antenna in the world but it worked). > > The only drawback I can see to doing work on the patio is temperature. > With winter coming on it may be be difficult to attain good working > temperatures. You can help yourself somewhat by keeping your epoxy in > a small heater box, (mine is thermostatically controlled w/ a 50 watt > light bulb as a heat source to hold about 80 deg F). Curing time is > going to be strongly affected, a working temperature of 68 - 70 deg F > is about the lowest that will give a reasonable cure time (10 - 12 > hours). You can help yourself out here with some of those shop lights > with the big reflector. W/ a 100 watt bulb shine them on the work > from approx a foot away and you can cut cure times down to a few hours > (don't let it get too hot though, it should be warm to the touch, even > quite warm, but not hot). > > Jim Hocut > jhocut@mindspring.com > > > From: SBLANKDDS Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:46:39 EST Subject: Re: COZY: building in a smaller space than anyone Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Ed, Forget the balcony, you'll out grow it and spend more time and effort for little return. Use the balcony to read the plans and make templates. Do all of this non-fiberglass stuff in your small space, then get creative. Try to find: 1. Another Cozy (any) builder that has space, and work together. 2. A senior that doesn't drive and would rent you (or give) space in their empty garage in exchange for a ride now and then...Ask everyone, EAA, church, friends...eventually a lead will show up. 3. Move to an appartment with a garage. 4. Find a girl with a two car garage and only one car. Don't date her, you'll lose you space if you break up, just be friends! Steve Blank (building in my half of the garage). From: gperry@usit.com Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:04:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: COZY: Workshop conditions Greetings, A few months back, I moved to a new location. The house has a large basement (over 1500 sq. ft.)with a 12' garage door on one end - just the right size to get the Cozy through. The temperature seems to hold a pretty constant 65 - 75 degrees even with our recent cold weather. However, the humidity was over 80% during the warm months. I bought a portable dehumidifier which running full time only lowers the level to 60 - 70%. A couple of questions... One, will this level of humidity affect the RAE epoxy in any way? Will it affect metal parts or the tools (saw tables, etc.)? And secondly, is there any way to further lower the humidity besides buying more portable dehumidifiers? Gregg Perry Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:49:23 -0500 (EST) From: whittaker@mindspring.com (Glen Whittaker) Subject: Re: COZY: Workshop conditions On 7 December 1997, Gregg Perry wrote: >A couple of questions... > One, will this level of humidity affect the RAE epoxy in any way? Will >it affect metal parts or the tools (saw tables, etc.)? > And secondly, is there any way to further lower the humidity besides >buying more portable dehumidifiers? Gregg, My basement is approximately the same size as yours. I suspect that your dehumidifier may be too small for your shop. or you may have a source of moisture that needs to be sealed. I use a dehumidifier that can condense 40 pints of water in 24 hours. This unit works fine for me. I usually keep my shop around 40% RH. Whenever the humidity is less than 35%, I start to have problems with static discharge(ouch!). I'm using AeroPoxy for my fuselage bulkheads. Back in September, I mixed a test batch of epoxy when the humidity was about 60% RH in the basement. The test batch is still sticky today. I installed a dehumidifier and mixed up another test batch from the same cans. Quess what? This time the epoxy cured hard and doesn't feel sticky when you touch it. Glen Whittaker Cozy MK IV 0563 From: gperry@usit.com Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:28:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: COZY: Workshop Conditions Thanks to all who wrote with ideas about my workshop humidity. The main heating and air conditioning duct for my house runs right down the middle of the shop so I may look into putting a couple of vents into it and an air return. This should have the added benefit of raising the temperature a few degrees in the winter which would be more comfortable. In the meantime, I'll keep the portable dehumidifier going. Thanks again... Gregg Perry From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:53:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Workshop Conditions gperry writes CAUTION: You will dust whole house, which must be unhealthy! If you do it install HEPA filters on the cold air return openings. If there is such a thing, they should be certified to use in a asbestos abatement confinement to ensure quality. Check with local asbestos abatement contractor for source, they use them and throw away. I have only warm air outlets in shop plus exhaust fan. In general the fan would keep up with warm air coming in to shop, creating slight negative pressure in shop, house air flows slowly into shop (its in basement) with door closed, minimizing dust and epoxy fumes in house.