Date: Thu, 16 Jan 97 8:25:33 EST From: "Nick J Ugolini" Subject: COZY: Interiors I am planning to paint the interior of my Long. Does anyone have any experience with zolatone? Is there a product you might want to recommend over zolatone. Any suggestions on finishing (or in my case) REFINISHING my interior. The original builder left the interior in the rough unfinished glass condition and painted it. YUK!!! I was thinking of just a light sand to remove the paint and rough spots, fill to clean up the surface and coat with a durable paint??... ummm what kind..... Southern Division, Naval Facilities Engineering Command P.O. Box 190010 N. Charleston, SC 29419-9010 From: "Krasa, Paul" Subject: RE: COZY: Interiors Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:43:16 -0500 Nick J Ugoliniasks Any suggestions on finishing (or in my case) REFINISHING my interior. I used Flexstone which I bought at KMart. Just wash the surface then wipe down with oil and wax remover and primed in the base color of the Flexstone then painted over the prime. Flexstone is a two step process were you paint your color first then after that dries you clear coat. The reason for priming is you use less Flexstone which is heavy and expensive. Worked great and looks good. Paul Long EZ 214LP !---*---! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:14:04 -0500 From: Mahan Subject: Re: COZY: Interiors Nick J Ugolini wrote: > > I am planning to paint the interior of my Long. Does anyone have any > experience with zolatone? Is there a product you might want to recommend over zolatone. Nick, the Flexstone Paul talked about is much better than Zolatone. Zolatone is hard to do well, and is not very durable. I used the light blue Zolatone on the interior of my Long-EZ because in 1987 it was about the only spray-finish interior available. It was starting to look worn and scratched in places within a year, and it stains easily (no top coat). Several friends have EZ's flying now with Flexstone, and it is much more durable than Zolatone and actually looks better. I've seen it in tan and gray, although other colors are available. Fred in Florida Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:37:25 -0500 From: Tom Teek Subject: Re: COZY: Interiors Nick J Ugolini wrote: > > I am planning to paint the interior of my Long. Does anyone have any > experience with zolatone? Is there a product you might want to recommend > over zolatone. Any suggestions on finishing (or in my case) REFINISHING my > interior. > > The original builder left the interior in the rough unfinished glass > condition and painted it. YUK!!! I was thinking of just a light sand to > remove the paint and rough spots, fill to clean up the surface and coat > with a durable paint??... ummm what kind..... > > Southern Division, Naval Facilities Engineering Command > P.O. Box 190010 > N. Charleston, SC 29419-9010 Nick Don't even consider Zolatone!!! It's difficult to apply and real messy. I know --I used it way back. There is a GREAT paint you can buy in almost any hardware store and it's called Fleckstone. It is a water based paint that is in a spray can. After paint drys you apply a clear coat that comes with the kit.One kit costs about $10.00 and for $40.00 you can finish the job. No Muss--No Fuss. If you really want to get fancy-Home Depot has indoor outdoor carpeting (very light)that does a great job of upholstering. I have just done mine (took a while)but really dresses up the interior. HOPE THIS HELPS Tom LE- N58AT Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:14:30 -0500 From: Phillip.Johnson@kan.lmcda.lmco.com (phillip johnson) Subject: Re: COZY: Interiors Tom Teek Writes: > If you really want to get fancy-Home Depot has indoor outdoor > carpeting (very light)that does a great job of upholstering. I have > just done mine (took a while)but really dresses up the interior. Sounds nice, do you have an estimate for your weight increase with this carpet? Phillip Johnson Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 01:00:11 -0600 From: Paul Comte Subject: COZY: RE: COZY Interiors, Materials Safety Safety note on interior finish materials. Don't forget to burn a sample. Yes I know it is a horible thought but many materials have "sizing?" that can really brew up quickly. Also watch the smoke level given off... Paul Comte, MKE, WI pcomte@tcccom.net Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 01:00:05 -0600 From: Paul Comte Subject: COZY: Re: COZY Interiors All the "fleck tone" type paint I have worked with has been very heavy. Some interior finish contractors my wife (the interior designer and source of endless honeydo's) has retained have done similar work by hand. The brush splatter method can be learned through some practice or hired out. I've seen these artists use a number of brush types, course, medium and fine, long and short bristle, to get amazing results. The method I seen is Prep, Prime, Base Coat and Spackle with paint in various colors moving through several brush types to get a varied pattern. Looks nicely random. You will be likely to save more than a few pounds... The comment on making the top coat of primer in the finish color is great. That method has saved me many hours on projects. Paul Comte. MKE, WI pcomte@tcccom.net Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 01:00:16 -0600 From: Paul Comte Subject: COZY: RE: Cozy Interiors, Material Source Source for interior finish materials. I found you can buy automotive replacement carpeting by the yard at Menards. (Is Menards hardware a national chain? He's got enough stores to run an Indy car...) It was priced right and no I didn't do a flame sample. Also be on the look out for office furniture refurbishers. These are some talented people who have access to better quality and more durable materials than most of the home reupholsters. Paul Comte, MKE, WI pcomte@tcccom.net Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 07:18:15 -0500 (EST) From: RonKidd@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Interiors I used Fleck Stone (in craft stores). It is durable and easy to use. I had poor luck with Zolatone. Pick up a kit (base and clear spray) and try it. I think I used 4 kits to do my 3 place. Ron N417CZ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 08:56:09 -0500 (EST) From: StetsonE@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Interiors In a message dated 97-01-16 10:45:19 EST, Tom Teek writes: > There is a GREAT paint you can buy > in almost any hardware store and it's called Fleckstone. It is a water > based paint that is in a spray can. After paint drys you apply a clear > coat that comes with the kit.One kit costs about $10.00 and for $40.00 > you can finish the job. No Muss--No Fuss. I painted my interior a few months ago with a Krylon product called "StoneCraft", also available in hardware stores. This may be the same as Fleckstone but under a different name. It was easy to apply and appears pretty durable. The only recommendation I would give is to paint the interior with a quick and dirty coat of a compatible spray paint in a color that's close to the StoneCraft color you're going to use. I used StoneCraft in Charcoal Gray with no underlying color coat and due to the nature of the paint going on in little clumps, I found that it didn't cover well unless I sprayed it on heavy. I ended up using about 10 kits of StoneCraft. If I'd applied a single coat of dark gray paint first, I could have used about 1/2 the StoneCraft that I used. Stet Elliott stetsone@aol.com Perpetual Long-EZ builder Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:43:26 -0500 (EST) From: Westlande@aol.com Subject: COZY: Cockpit Paint (Multispec) I painted my interior this weekend with a product called Multispec. It is available at Sherwin Williams stores and I paid about $32 for a gallon for it last fall. Had I been aware of the spraycan product, Flex Stone (?), I probably would have used it. In any event, here is how it worked out. Multispec has a water-like consistency with all these colored "lumps" mixed in. I used my HVLP spray gun which has a gravity feed reservoir attached to the top of it and it worked very well. I had to crank up the air pressure to 80 psi to get the colored "lumps" to "splatter", but there was very little overspray with this type of gun. I was concerned I might need a gun with an agitator in the reservoir to keep the paint mixed, but that was not necessary. As a previous writer mentioned, primer would have meant using less top coat, but after everything was painted, I ended up using about 2/3 of a gallon without priming. I don't think a suction type gun would work with this type of paint, but I did not try so I can't say for sure. The results were very good. Cleaning the gun was the worst part as there little paint lumps clinging everywhere inside. You thin the paint with water, but the cleanup has to be with paint thinner. The fumes are low. Unlike Zolatane, Multispec requires a top coat of water-based polyurethane for protection. I'll do that tonight and that does add to the cost. A quart should do it, so the inside should be done for about $40. The spray cans sure sound easier and the cost appears to be the same. There is no gun to clean, I don't know if a top coat is required. Touch up a few years later may be more practical for the spray cans as well - while I poured the remaining paint into a jar for later, the can says Multispec has a shelf life of one year. Eric Westland Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:01:05 -0500 From: Paul Burkhardt Subject: COZY: Cozy:cockpit paint As a previous writer mentioned, primer would have meant using less top coat, but after everything was painted, I ended up using about 2/3 of a gallon without priming. I used the can(two part kit) product that is sold at home Depot It cost me approx. 100+ dollars-10.00 per kit and I only painted areas that I felt necessary. (ie. skipped under the back seats,strake interior,instrument panel) the application is good however and just doesnt run! I would caution anyone who uses it however to use primer under it. I used micro in areas to smooth out the rough spots, now approx. 6-9 months later those spots are now turing yellowish, I will probably have to redo those areas.Man I hate learning the hard way! Paul Burkhardt Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:25:40 -0500 From: DL Davis Subject: Re: COZY: Cockpit Paint (Multispec) At 12:43 PM 1/21/97 -0500, Westlande@aol.com wrote: >Multispec has a water-like consistency with all these colored "lumps" mixed >in. I used my HVLP spray gun which has a gravity feed reservoir attached to >the top of it and it worked very well. I had to crank up the air pressure to >80 psi to get the colored "lumps" to "splatter", but there was very little >overspray with this type of gun. I was concerned I might need a gun with an >agitator in the reservoir to keep the paint mixed, but that was not >necessary. As a previous writer mentioned, primer would have meant using >less top coat, but after everything was painted, I ended up using about 2/3 >of a gallon without priming. I don't think a suction type gun would work >with this type of paint, but I did not try so I can't say for sure. The >results were very good. > >Cleaning the gun was the worst part as there little paint lumps clinging >everywhere inside. You thin the paint with water, but the cleanup has to be >with paint thinner. The fumes are low. > I also used Multispec in my airplane. I liked the results. I just used a regular suction spray gun and it worked out okay. I do agree that the worst part is cleaning the gun. But thats true with Zolatone too. This kind of paint is created by mixing oil based paint with water based paint, so the two stay unmixed in the can for a long time. So you need both water and paint thinner to clean your gun and it seems to take several iterations of each to get it all out of the gun. The other big advantage of Multispec is that it comes in quite a nice variety of colors, I think about 50 different color combinations. I recommend that you use the top coat too. I didn't do that and I have found that the wear is not quite as good without it and the surface is harder to keep clean without it. All things considered, I'd use MultiSpec again. If you go to your local Sherwin Williams stores to look for it, be sure to go to the INTERIOR paint store, not the auto paint store. This is not trunk paint like Zolatone. Its designed for home interior decorating. Dewey Davis Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 00:47:15 -0500 (EST) From: Westlande@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Cockpit Paint (Multispec) In a message dated 1/21/97 7:38:20 PM, dldavis@erols.com (DL Davis) wrote: >The other big advantage of Multispec is that it comes in quite a nice >variety of colors, I think about 50 different color combinations. I >recommend that you use the top coat too. This is true, forgot to mention it (the colors). I top coated it tonight with the water-based Varathane, $12.50 per quart at Home Deopt. You must use the water-based product as the solvent-based is not compatable for some reason. Anyways, with the same HVLP gun, a quart will do two coats, 2-3 hours between coats. Eric Westland Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:13:19 -0500 (EST) From: SWrightFLY@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Cockpit Paint (Multispec) Where can you purchase the multispec paint? phone number? cost per gallon or quart. by SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (PMDF V5.1-4 #16063) with SMTP id <01IEJVSC8YKK0022EN@SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:13:07 PST Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:12:50 -0800 From: hrogers@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Howard Rogers) Subject: Re: COZY: Cockpit Paint (Multispec) >In a message dated 1/21/97 7:38:20 PM, dldavis@erols.com (DL Davis) wrote: > >>The other big advantage of Multispec is that it comes in quite a nice >>variety of colors, I think about 50 different color combinations. I >>recommend that you use the top coat too. > >This is true, forgot to mention it (the colors). I top coated it tonight >with the water-based Varathane, $12.50 per quart at Home Deopt. You must use >the water-based product as the solvent-based is not compatable for some >reason. Anyways, with the same HVLP gun, a quart will do two coats, 2-3 >hours between coats. > >Eric Westland This discussion of interior paints has certainly been enlightening. I'm glad that there are so many choices out there, these days. I have one question about the above described procedure. I seem to recall, from the days when I used to dabble in Radio Control, that a coating of urethane was great for preserving decals, covering just about any type of paint, and it was durable, and totally fuel proof. However, I also seem to recall that it was not a good substrate for any other type of paint, meaning that if you wanted to retouch, you had a problem. I am pretty sure that I will have to change (and subsequently retouch) at least a couple of things in the interior of the airplane, even after I have "thought of everything". This is just a fact of Murphy's law, I guess, and I would be naive to believe otherwise. So, my question is: Can you retouch by sanding, priming, spraying on a bit more Multispec, and recoating with urethane? --Howard Rogers, 415-926-4052 hrogers@slac.stanford.edu by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-5 #17060) with SMTP id <01IFWYFRP5HE95MUHP@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:17:17 EST Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:17:14 -0500 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: Cowling Odds and Ends Organization: AEROCAD INC. Westlande@aol.com wrote: > > The cowling on my Mark IV is going on easier than I imagined. > I do have one question that Marc can index under "Bonehead" in the archives - > since this is the only part on the plane that has come out of a mold (it's > smooth w/o sanding for days!), how should it be prepared for primer? Should > it be scuffed up first or left smooth? Eric, ALWAYS scuff any part that comes out of a mold for the next bond or primer. How much? If the part is going to have primer sprayed on, sand with about 180 to 220 grit until dull. If the dreaded pinholes are on the part because the molder did not use a type of epoxy primer first in the mold, after sanding the part, mix a small amount of resin and thicken it with cab-o-sil (fumed silica) Wicks and ACS sell this. Spread this over the part trying to push in the holes with a plastic spreader. Remove any excess resin lines. Sift micro over the wet cab-o-sil. (make it EZer to sand). Let cure and pad sand with 180-220 again until it's dull. Now your part is 95% pinhole free with stuff that will NOT shrink in the later years of it's life. (mine did after 3 years of flying N238CZ, the pinholes that I filled with primer made small dimples under the paint.) Not pretty. Now you are ready to prime your part. Have fun.............glad it's you and not me. If you have a part that has a outer primer coat on it, (From a mold) It will also need to have added primer on it before painting. You can pad sand with 400 grit wet for the dulling required for good bonding. If there is a place where a overlap of NEW glass will be bonded to, Always try to REMOVE the primer by sanding it off down to the glass in that place. The bond will be much better there. Even if the primer was EPOXY. Depending on what mold releases are used in the molds to make these parts the mold release can transfer to the part (wax, PVA, PVC and others) can be used. ALWAYS wash your part with soap and warm water to remove this stuff to make sure that it's not on there. This way you are going to get rid of the stuff that might give you problems in your next steps. We have gone to a release that is called Frekote 700NC. It will not transfer to the part and the only way to remove it out of the mold is to sand or buff it out. We also still use PVA sometimes and if you ever see a green film on a part that comes off with water? That's it. -- AeroCad Inc. Jeff Russell phone/ call first for fax 910-961-2238 NEW E-mail: JRAEROCAD@yadtel.net under new construction (web site:) http://www.binary.net/aerocad Date: 01 Mar 97 19:20:20 EST From: "Edmond A. Richards" <103235.1336@compuserve.com> Subject: COZY: Painting Greetings All, I am about ready to prime the bottom of the airplane. My question is, can I/should I go ahead and put the finish coats on the bottom as well, while the fuselage is on its back or should I wait until I am ready to paint the whole thing. I am using PPG K-36 primer and I plan on using a urethane finish coat. The obvious problem would be the blend between what I paint now (the bottom) and whenever the rest of the fuselage gets painted. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Ed Richards Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 01:39:59 +0000 From: robin du bois Subject: Re: COZY: Painting Having gone through the incredible three trys process in painting and finally achieving a good finish with the help of one of the best painting pros in the country, let me make a highly prejudicial statement. Don't do it!!!!! The finish coat should be done by itself, in a big hanger used for painting. It is not particularly hard to paint the bottom which will come out even better than the top because the tiny inevitable inclusions of dust will only settle on the top, so if you are going to do the job one way up or the other, by all means turn the plane upside down...just kidding. Do all the primer filler till it is perfect. Then paint it, all at once. An important point it takes a whole plane to find out, and even most pros don't know this, paint the airplane as near to fully assemled as you can, wings canard and ALL parts you want to end up the same color! White paint is transparent to some extent no matter how many coats, and if for instance you paint the canard three feet from the plane it will be six shades lighter/darker depending on Fate and the airplane Goddess. Heed me, for I have F'd up mightily, and you don't need to do the same! If you get runs, leave them alone till fully cured, a week or more, then wetsand them out with 400+ on a rubber block, its fast and it's easy. Step sand finer and buff. For those who want to do their own prep and have a pro shoot the thing, Eddies Piant shop at Brookhaven airport in NY has done half a dozen EZs, including mine. Run, hide, but don't screw up your paint, it's 40 times as much work as you can possibly imagine. rdb Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 23:07:30 -0500 From: wilhelmson@scra.org Subject: Re: COZY: Painting ED: The process of painting any large solid object without overspray problems involves a careful timing operation, where the time to paint completely around the plane must be less than the drying time of the paint. This is a oversimplification of the process but it may help you understand what you are up against. I have seen several very expert automobile painters foul up airplane paint jobs because they did not realize the large area they were painting and the drying time of the paint did not allow them to blend the painted areas without overspray problems. Urethane is especially bad because it is near impossible to rub out the overspray areas. The short answer to your question is don't`paint any part unless you can paint the whole thing. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: COZY: Painting Author: "Edmond A. Richards" <103235.1336@compuserve.com> at Internet_gateway Date: 3/1/97 7:20 PM Greetings All, I am about ready to prime the bottom of the airplane. My question is, can I/should I go ahead and put the finish coats on the bottom as well, while the fuselage is on its back or should I wait until I am ready to paint the whole thing. I am using PPG K-36 primer and I plan on using a urethane finish coat. The obvious problem would be the blend between what I paint now (the bottom) and whenever the rest of the fuselage gets painted. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Ed Richards Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 00:08:41 -0500 From: INFINITY Aerospace Subject: COZY: Painting Hi to Ed and All, Try hoisting / propping / standing the aircraft on it's tail, nose up, as high an angle as you can get it to ease sanding, priming and painting most of the bottom side of the aircraft. Watch damaging the wing tips - roll it up onto something like car ramps (then you could go a little past vertical, but watch damaging the winglets). Three car ramps would get the whole aircraft a foot higher or so if you want to keep it in a level attitude. Infinity's Forever, EAA Member EAA Technical Counselor JD EAA Flight Advisor AOPA Member Test Pilot James D. Newman, President LCDR F-14 USNR INFINITY Aerospace Mailing Address: P. O. Box 12275 El Cajon, CA 92022 Shipping Address: 1750 Joe Crosson Drive, D-2 El Cajon, CA 92020 (619) 448-5103 PH & FAX E-Mail -- INFINITY_Aerospace@CompuServe.com Checkout our other products, Stick Grips, Retractable Main Landing Gear and the Infinity 1 Home Page -- http://Ourworld.CompuServe.com/Homepages/INFINITY_Aerospace by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-5 #17060) with SMTP id <01IG20RU4F2I95XPLK@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 06:18:13 EST Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 06:18:15 -0500 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: Painting Organization: AEROCAD INC. <3318DA69.41D0@dakotacom.net> <331AB30C.1303@yadtel.Net> Robin du bois wrote: > Do all the primer filler till it is perfect. Then paint it, all at once. > An important point it takes a whole plane to find out, and even most > pros don't know this, paint the airplane as near to fully assemled as > you can, wings canard and ALL parts you want to end up the same color! > White paint is transparent to some extent no matter how many coats, and > if for instance you paint the canard three feet from the plane it will > be six shades lighter/darker depending on Fate and the airplane Goddess. I have painted 4 airplanes in total and think it's best to take anything off that you can and paint them in batches. It is too hard to get a complete wetout of paint on a complete airframe. I have split up my last 2 like this-:) Day 1) both wings hung T.E. down less controls surfaces. Day 2) Bottom and top cowl, speed brake, spinner, wheel pants, canard less elevators, elevators, canopy, vortilons and more small parts. Day 3) fuselage and the rest of the small parts. Color has to do with the person that mixes it. Find a shop that mixes their own. less chance of too much tint added by mistake. AeroCad Inc. Jeff Russell phone/ call first for fax 910-961-2238 NEW E-mail: JRAEROCAD@yadtel.net web site under construction NEW pics: http://www.binary.net/aerocad Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 11:26:58 +0000 From: robin du bois Subject: Re: COZY: Painting Jeff Russel wrote: Robin du bois wrote: > Do all the primer filler till it is perfect. Then paint it, all at once. > An important point it takes a whole plane to find out, and even most > pros don't know this, paint the airplane as near to fully assemled as > you can, wings canard and ALL parts you want to end up the same color! > White paint is transparent to some extent no matter how many coats, and > if for instance you paint the canard three feet from the plane it will > be six shades lighter/darker depending on Fate and the airplane Goddess. I have painted 4 airplanes in total and think it's best to take anything off that you can and paint them in batches. It is too hard to get a complete wetout of paint on a complete airframe. I have split up my last 2 like this-:) Day 1) both wings hung T.E. down less controls surfaces. Day 2) Bottom and top cowl, speed brake, spinner, wheel pants, canard less elevators, elevators, canopy, vortilons and more small parts. Day 3) fuselage and the rest of the small parts. Color has to do with the person that mixes it. Find a shop that mixes their own. less chance of too much tint added by mistake. AeroCad Inc. Jeff Russell I have painted 2 airplanes four times each and disagree completely. In every case when parts are painted seperately there is a color density difference between parts, and this with a high time professional who has painted many hundreds of planes at the controls. For an amatuer painter to hang the wings as you suggest, (been there, done that) leads to multiple duplicate efforts and requires 3 days of good painting conditions when it can be tough to find one good window of oportunity. An enpoumous amount of wasted time setting up jigs as well. A guy who knows his stuff can shoot an entire plane as I suggested, in one piece like the pros do it, in about two hours. This means if it is all prepared you can roll it into the paint hanger, shoot it after regular work hours, and roll it out all done the next AM... Just a suggestion from some one who has done it. Rdb Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 15:40:51 -0500 From: wilhelmson@scra.org Subject: Re: COZY: COZY painting This problem can be created by improper stirring of the paint. Some color pigments tend to settle quickly, the parts painted last get more pigment. This can be eliminated by good stirring to start with and continuous agitation of the paint while painting. Also, some of the new pearl colors which are really several coats of different base colors with transparent overcoats are tricky to get the same on every part. Most of us do not have a hanger size paint booth to paint our airplanes in and therfore, if you want a exotic paint job you might want to hire it done by somone who does have one. Money will solve the problem, but be careful who you hire. From: Ken Reiter Date: Mon, 3 Mar 97 15:51:26 CST Subject: Re: COZY: COZY painting Hello Group, I used the System 3, water based poly urethane. Their primer is VERY easy to spray and sand, color is ok, BUT the clear is VERY hard to get to flow out. You thin and clean-up with water. Solution: spray on several layers of clear (gives deep gloss) do not worry about over spray. Then use 3M buffing products. I painted the strip and used it to break the paint task from top and bottom. 1. Paint strip down both sides 2. paint bottom 3. paint top 4. then paint cowling and smaller pieces. Good luck, Ken Reiter Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 22:02:26 -0800 From: C van Hoof Organization: Architect Subject: COZY: COZY painting Hi ALL, Regarding painting, my 02c, have seen a local lancair, all painted same day, same booth, same precautions & preparations, but the Fuse was sprayed horizontal (as it stands on the wheels) while the cowling(s) were done standing vertical - can't tell you what is the correct manner to spray - but this showed a distinct colour variation when the sun (light) cought it in a specific direction (actually - once you noticed it , it never went away). Hope this adds to the confusion :-) chris #219 (nowhere near painting anything :-)) From: Epplin_John_A@hpmail1.90.deere.com Date: Thu, 15 May 97 07:40:26 -0500 Subject: [canard-aviators] Pin holes in Micro Subject: [canard-aviators] [The Canard Aviators's Mailing list] > [The Canard Aviators's Mailing list] > Does anyone know the proportion of talc that is mixed into micro to > eliminate pinholes? It probably isn't critical as this is cosmetic, but > the micro should remain resistant to weather. > > Any other warnings? > > Al Hodges > mah@globalisp.com A friend sent me parts of the construction manual for the Europa. It detailed a procedure for the final filling that used a micro and colloidal silica mixture. If I remember correctly the silica used was 25% or less. I tried this using abut 10% silica and found the mixture much easier to spread and left fewer pinholes. It does not eliminate the problem but did seem to reduce it. I intend to try it again with more silica and see if it gets even better. I used West Systems with 206 hardener and some methyl alcohol as a thinner. (less than 10% alcohol) John Epplin Cozy Mk4 #467 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To remove yourself from this list, send email to: majordomo@canard.com and put the following as the very first thing in your message body: unsubscribe canard-aviators you@youremail.com If you have problems, please email support@canard.com For more information visit: http://www.canard.com Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 04:58:47 -0800 From: Eric Westland Subject: COZY: How much paint? How many gallons of paint for the top coat does it take to paint one of these things? I know this must vary, but could come of you that have painted a plane before give me an idea? Thanks, Eric From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: How much paint? (fwd) Date: Fri, 16 May 97 9:29:52 EDT Eric Westland writes: >How many gallons of paint for the top coat does it take to paint one of >these things? I know this must vary, but could come of you that have >painted a plane before give me an idea? Dang, it's been a long time, but I remember using about 1 gallon of white, 1 quart of red and 1 - 2 quarts of brown to paint my Q2. I used a couple of gallons of primer, and maybe 4 - 5 ??? of Featherfill (90% of which I sanded off, I'm sure). My memory is VERY hazy on this. The Q2 has less surface area than the COZY MKIV, but not a lot less, so I'd _guess_ that 2 gallons of finish paint ought to do it. I think I had some paint left over, too. Am I way off base here? -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: Lee Devlin Subject: COZY: Engine mount painting Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:03:05 MDT I've had good success with the PPG products that I've used in several recent projects. If I were to paint an engine mount, I'd use PPG's DP-48 white epoxy primer. It's also available in many other colors. The number after the DP determines the color. If I were interested in making it look really nice, I'd follow up with PPG Concept 2020 clear coat. A general rule of thumb to use on modern 2-part coatings is that everything costs at least $20-25/qt. and has to be mixed at with some catalyst/reducer that is also in that price range. You can buy them in any autobody supply shop that carries PPG products. Lee Devlin | HP Greeley Division | Long EZ N36MX Piper Colt N4986Z | 700 71st Ave. | Cozy MK IV under const. 'Spirit of rec.aviation'| Greeley, CO 80634 | (Chapter 10) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:45:45 -0400 (EDT) From: AlWick@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Engine Mount In a message dated 97-06-03 13:07:00 EDT, EWestland@premier1.net (Eric Westland) writes: << I talked with Richard about this and the holes are for venting while he welds the main joints. Afterwards, he just welds the vent holes closed. He does not put any type of rust inhibitors inside the tubes as they are sealed. I painted mine with MarHyde self-etching primer. The RV crowd does this with good results. Auto stores sell it in spray cans and one will do it. It cost me about $13. >> I work for a company that processes tubing (sorry, they won't do any aircraft stuff). Erics explanation for hole is accurate. If you weld without a vent hole, the last part of weld develops defect due to internal air pressure as weld solidifies. Powder coat is very simple process. Just need to etch the tube, then puff on the powder. Bake at 400f for 20 min and wammo, beautiful looking part. You could do it at home if you had some way of developing an elect charge potential between the tube and the powder. I bet there are people that have done it at home. Powder coat is real common process. Environmental restrictions are making it essential to use this process. They have made great progress in recent years. Now have powders that you can touch up, paint over with wet paint, heat resistant, way better than plating at corrosion resist. I've seen major improvements even this past year. FWIW -al Subject: Re: COZY: Engine Mount Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 15:01:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "Randy Smith" al wick wrote: > > In a message dated 97-06-03 13:07:00 EDT, EWestland@premier1.net (Eric > Westland) writes: > > << > I talked with Richard about this and the holes are for venting while he > welds the main joints. Afterwards, he just welds the vent holes closed. > He does not put any type of rust inhibitors inside the tubes as they are > sealed. > > I painted mine with MarHyde self-etching primer. The RV crowd does this > with good results. Auto stores sell it in spray cans and one will do it. > It cost me about $13. > >> > > I work for a company that processes tubing (sorry, they won't do any aircraft > stuff). Erics explanation for hole is accurate. If you weld without a vent > hole, the last part of weld develops defect due to internal air pressure as > weld solidifies. > Powder coat is very simple process. Just need to etch the tube, then puff on > the powder. Bake at 400f for 20 min and wammo, beautiful looking part. You > could do it at home if you had some way of developing an elect charge > potential between the tube and the powder. I bet there are people that have > done it at home. > Powder coat is real common process. Environmental restrictions are making it > essential to use this process. They have made great progress in recent years. > Now have powders that you can touch up, paint over with wet paint, heat > resistant, way better than plating at corrosion resist. I've seen major > improvements even this past year. > FWIW > -al > Does this process only work on steel? In other words is there a similar process for say, aluminum? (something less than 400f) -Randy Smith : Randy.Smith@ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM --* --- -* **-* *-** -*-- -* Watch this space for COZY progress |Cozy MkIV| NCR General Purpose Computing Randy.Smith@ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |---( )---| Global Support Center Voice 803-939-7648, V+ 633-7648 ___o/o\o___ West Columbia, SC 29170 "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." -JC Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 15:12:59 -0500 From: Paul Comte Subject: Re: COZY: Engine Mount AlWick@aol.com wrote: snip > Powder coat is very simple process. Just need to etch the tube, then puff on > the powder. Bake at 400f for 20 min and wammo, beautiful looking part. snip Will the 400 degree bake affect the mount? Warp it due to not being bolted to the case and firewall? Sound like a nice clean deal, thanks for the info. This does sound like a process my wife uses for appling ceramic type finishes to art metals projects but at much higher temperatures. Were you making a reference to electrostatic (as in the process used in painting) when you mentioned electro charge potential? Pcomte@tcccom.net Paul Comte, Milwaukee, WI by SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (PMDF V5.1-7 #16063) with SMTP id <01IJMXCWXJE2000LNR@SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:52:54 PDT Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 12:55:51 -0800 From: hrogers@SLAC.Stanford.edu (Howard Rogers) Subject: Re: COZY: Engine Mount Randy Smith wrote: >Does this process only work on steel? In other words is there a similar >process for say, aluminum? (something less than 400f) > >-Randy Smith : Randy.Smith@ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM > Randy, and the group, I just thought I would throw my two cents worth into this discussion. First, the simple answer to the above question is "yes, it works on aluminum", but you already expressed concern over the temperatures reached. I am not aware of a process that uses a low enough temp to be unconcerned, where aluminum is involved. Keep in mind, also, that the shops that do this type of work are not necessarily aware or careful about such issues. I know of a very tragic incident where some aluminum scuba tanks were powder coated, and two fatalities resulted during attempted filling, before it was figured out. Obviously the strength of the alloy was compromised. Myself, I wouldn't do it to any aluminum aircraft structural piece. One other issue, related to powder coating an engine mount, is the thickness and toughness of the material. Perhaps recent advances to the technology have changed this, but I have been told that the coating can become quite thick, and could POSSIBLY mask a crack that was beginning to develop, under the coating. This would tend to make me a little reluctant to use it on welded steel tube structures, also, in spite of the fact that it is a fabulous finish. And Al, to address your comments about the plugged vents on your mount (I have never seen a Weldtech mount, or any Cozy mount, for that matter, but I assume it is similar to the one for my Long EZ). Are they plugged with weld, or with little brass drive screws? If the latter, I would check with Weldtech and ask them if they oiled the interior of the tubes. If they didn't, it is very easy to do it yourself. Depending on the design, if you look very carefully, you can tell which portions of the mount are trapped "dead ends" of tubing. I suspect that the open ends you referred to don't actually extend very far up into the rest of the mount, and soon encounter a wall that seperates them from the rest of the volume. You can probably paint that area by cleaning with solvent, and sloshing paint around inside, and pouring it out. As for the rest of the mount, you need to drill two vent holes for each seperate "contained space", at opposite ends. One is for oil to pass into or out of the space, and the other is a vent that will allow this to happen. A hypodermic applicator is handy for squirting in the hot oil (doesn't need to boil). The oil is available from Wicks, ACS, etc, and comes with reccommended quanties to use for this. Tape over the holes temporarily, and slosh and tilt. Don't worry if you don't get it "perfect" because the linseed oil will "crawl" and coat the interior surfaces very nicely. When you are done, and have poured out all the oil you can, plug the tiny holes with brass drive-screws, and you're finished. It isn't difficult at all, and it does a damn fine job of protecting the structure. As for the paint, there have been several good suggestions here, any one of which would probably be fine. Think "thin and white". Howard Rogers, A&P 2005148 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 02:29:34 -0500 From: Curt Smith Subject: Re: COZY: Engine Mount >...One other issue, related to powder coating an engine >mount, is the thickness and toughness of the material. Perhaps recent >advances to the technology have changed this, but I have been told that the >coating can become quite thick, and could POSSIBLY mask a crack that was >beginning to develop, under the coating. This would tend to make me a >little reluctant to use it on welded steel tube structures, also, in spite >of the fact that it is a fabulous finish.... >Howard Rogers, A&P 2005148 Howard has a good point here. As both a motorhead and Cozy builder, I can tell you all that powder coating gets mixed reviews in the motorcycle community for this very reason and that it can "seal in" corrosion or rust and make things much worse as the metal is deteriorating under the coating that hides the problem. I'm a little puzzled by all this discussion. If the mount has a good coat of paint on it, that's enough. They tend to break - not rust. I've had mine in the shop for far longer than I care to admit (5 years or so) and it looks just fine. The last time I looked my two 15+ year-old motorcycles, that I ride daily and keep garaged, haven't disappeared in a pile of rust either. This is another one of those "let's just get back to building" issues, guys. Curt Smith Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:48:53 -0400 (EDT) From: AlWick@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Engine Mount In a message dated 97-06-04 03:14:49 EDT, pcomte@tcccom.net (Paul Comte) writes: << Will the 400 degree bake affect the mount? Warp it due to not being bolted to the case and firewall? >> Highly unlikely to have any signif distortion. 400f is nothing. Do your cookie sheets distort? << Sound like a nice clean deal, thanks for the info. This does sound like a process my wife uses for appling ceramic type finishes to art metals projects but at much higher temperatures. Were you making a reference to electrostatic (as in the process used in painting) when you mentioned electro charge potential? >> Yep. Long as that powder preffers to go onto your tube, it will work. Bet you could accomplish it by rubbing your engine mount on you head (assuming you have more hair than I). Great idea eh? The charge is just a convenient way to get powder to stick to tube before you melt it. I bet dipping tube in orange juice would work. :-) -al Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:50:24 -0400 (EDT) From: AlWick@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Engine Mount In a message dated 97-06-04 04:13:00 EDT, you write: << I just thought I would throw my two cents worth into this discussion. First, the simple answer to the above question is "yes, it works on aluminum", but you already expressed concern over the temperatures reached. I am not aware of a process that uses a low enough temp to be unconcerned, where aluminum is involved. Keep in mind, also, that the shops that do this type of work are not necessarily aware or careful about such issues. >> I am very very confident that heating any alum or steel to 400f will have absolutely no effect on the material. The only exception would be if you were using a T0 alum, which is a heat treat designation that would never be used in aircraft. The alloy designation 6061-T6. The T6 part means that the material was heated after manufacturing to the recommended temp of 1000f. At this temp the various elements in alum wander around and make the material homogenous. Prior to this 1000f, the various components of the alloy tend to clump together due to small variations in temperature when the material transitions from liquid to solid. After seeing 1000f for a number of minutes, the material is dropped in water to lock the elements into their homogenous positions. (I'm trying to simplify this so the average Joe understands, please don't beat me up). The other part of the heat treat process is called artificial aging. When alum first is quenched in water it is very mallable. Bends real easy. But two days later, it is quite different. After 2 years or so it finally settles down through this natural aging. Artificial aging speeds up this process. After letting the parts sit for 1 day, you place it in an oven and bake it around 350f for few hours. This eliminates 95% of the natural aging. You get all of the mechanical properties right then. So basically, all alum that we deal with has pretty much seen the temperatures it would see in the powder coat process. This whole heat treat process is a very interesting one. Temps and times steeped in tradition, based little on fact. I did a bunch of studies at my last job in alum foundry. They normally hold part at 1000f for 8 hours! But I found that you got identical properties after only 1.5 hours. What a waste. The new methods of modifying the alloy have led to very substantial improvement in mech properties. FWIW -al From: sleeper@usinternet.com Subject: [canard-aviators] Re: Spot putties Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 04:47:21 -0500 Subject: [canard-aviators] [The Canard Aviators's Mailing list] Jeff Russell wrote that spot putties should not be used. 3M makes three spot putties, a red, a blue and a green. These have different formulations other than color. Why wouldn't one or the other of these be ok for filling pin holes if there is nothing on top of it but the primer. It seems to me that it should be ok since many of us use a non-epoxy primer like Dupont URO over the micro and the autobody people use polyurethane primers like URO on top of spot putty all the time with good results. Of course, I also believe that epoxy and cab-o-sil should be used to fill the majority of pin holes but, after all, there is always that odd one left over that it is real easy to fill with spot putty. Regards, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To remove yourself from this list, send email to: majordomo@canard.com and put the following as the very first thing in your message body: unsubscribe canard-aviators you@youremail.com If you have problems, please email support@canard.com For more information visit: http://www.canard.com