Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:10:21 -0700 (MST) From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: COZY: EPOXY almost final results Chris, First...thanks for the info. I used Safe T Poxy and Safe T Poxy II to build most of my Long-EZ (2 Place Cozy like plane !). Now I need new epoxy to rebuild the canard and other work. I read the archives on Epolite 2427 and decided it is not for me, even though I live in a dry climate (could be wrong). Plus it may not be made anymore. Since I want a 100:44 epoxy for my epoxy pump, that seems to leave the EZ10/84 (Diversified Products) as the only option. Assuming that this is the same as your #8, does the low interlaminar shear strength mean that the skins will come apart in flight? If it is the same strength as SafeT Poxy, I have no concerns since those have been flying for 2 decades. Finally, am I correct that the EZ10/84 system is the only 100:44 Safe T Poxy system available> Ron Lee Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 14:33:33 -0800 From: Chris van Hoof Organization: C van Hoof - Architect Subject: COZY: EPOXY almost final results Hi to all, So, the epoxy specimen went to the lab.... then they told me that the samples were manufactured with the UNI in the wrong direction. That was disappointing....so we made another batch, all under normal conditions, these were acceptable for testing and the results are as follows:- INTERLAMINAR SHEAR STRENGHTS, Mpa Specimen Epoxy Epoxy Epoxy Epoxy Epoxy Epoxy Epoxy Epoxy Epoxy #2 #3 #4 #6 #7 #8 #9 #10 #11 1 41.8 25.0 23.7 26.9 29.5 18.0 39.1 40.3 25.4 2 42.0 25.6 23.9 27.2 30.3 19.5 39.8 40.3 28.5 3 42.2 26.5 24.0 27.9 31.2 22.6 40.7 41.7 28.7 4 42.3 26.6 24.3 28.4 32.0 23.1 41.2 42.1 29.1 5 42.6 27.0 24.8 28.8 32.0 24.4 41.7 42.7 29.5 6 42.9 27.3 24.9 28.8 32.2 25.7 41.8 43.5 29.5 7 43.0 27.8 25.9 29.5 33.0 --.- --.- 44.2 30.7 8 44.2 --.- --.- 29.8 33.1 --.- --.- --.- 32.5 Mean 42.6 26.5 24.5 28.4 31.7 22.2 40.7 42.1 29.2 Std. Dev 0.761 0.969 0.764 1.03 1.26 2.93 1.08 1.49 2.02 Coeff Var0.018 0.037 0.031 0.036 0.040 0.132 0.027 0.035 0.069 (Not enough Epoxy was available to do #1 & #5 this time around, hope this does not cause anyone a problem. If it is really needed I'll try to obtain more, but won't do so unless specifically requested by a Cozy builder.) To recall the types:- 1 JEFCO Resin 1307 Hardner 3102 Mix 100:25 2 PROSET Resin 125 Hardner 226 Mix 100:30 3 EPOLAM 2020 system Mix 100:34 4 EPO 685 system Mix 100:38 5 REA HP system Mix 100:38 6 EPOLAM 2022 system Mix 100:40 7 EPOLITE 2427 system Mix 100:44 8 EPOLITE 2410 Resin 2410 Hardner 2184 Mix 100:44 9 SP Epoxy system Mix 100:25 10Shell info to follow in summary 11Vinylester info to follow in summary Note the strenght of type 8, which is very low and used by Cozy builders, please do your own tests here, to verify.... More will follow as and when it becomes available. All the above obtained thru' the kind help and assistance from the CSIR and in particular Dr Jim Huston and Mr Chris Adrian. Hope this helps someone. Chris #219 And then of course: the disclaimer part ... Although I publish everything I learn to all of you in order to share my .02, it will allways be only my opinion only and the path I'm following does not have to be followed by any of you. All the above is to enrich each of us with the info I found, and you will use/abuse this at your own risk. Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 01:04:35 -0500 From: Rick Roberts <102503.1561@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: COZY: EPOXY almost final results I just bought some of the EZ POXY 10 and 83 products from DMC here in San Diego area, because I ran out of hardener for my multiyear old stash of Epolite 2410, 2409, and 2184. The stuff works great, just like the old stuff and just as full of MDA. I wouldn't hestiate to substitute. I also bought up his entire about to be trashed inventory of 2180 hardener, and more 2409 resin. What a stash! Anyway if anybody has some saf-t-poxy II and wants some 2180 hardener. Let me know, I can spare some. (10 gallons will go a long way). If you don't know what the 2180 hardener is, it is a super fast hardener for saf-t-poxy II. I use it instead of 5 minute and it makes excellent micro and flox for moderate strength bonds, and thin bond lines (otherwise it really exotherms). Rick Roberts by SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (PMDF V5.1-4 #16063) with SMTP id <01IDWDA4BVBU00160G@SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:14:48 PST Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 16:15:29 -0800 From: hrogers@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Howard Rogers) Subject: Re: COZY: Epoxy Worries >I went ahead, and glassed the seatback, but before I go any further, I >figured I check >with you all. > >Also, How do you know how much to mix? Like I said, I started with 100g, >and ended >up making 3 more 100g... Is this just something you learn? > >Stuart Yes, it is, and now that you have gotten a taste, you may begin to understand why most builders spring for the bucks and buy a good ratio pump. It becomes a real challenge to keep the stuff flowing at an adequate rate when you are doing a really large layup. I have recruited friends or family members to do nothing but pump and mix epoxy, so as to keep it coming quickly enough. Having to use a scale, under these circumstances, is a PAIN. I consider the purchase of my pump to be one of the wisest choices I made, during the project. I recommend it highly! -Howard Rogers --Howard Rogers, 415-926-4052 hrogers@slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:33:59 -0500 (EST) From: Fritzx2@aol.com Subject: COZY: RAE Mix Ratio Hi, Now that I've switched from 2427 epoxy to the original RAE (2426 resin with the slow hardner 2177) I noticed last night that the mix ratio on the can says 100 parts resin to 21 parts hardner. However, the MK IV plans say to use 100:22 for RAE. For those of you that have been using RAE for some time now, has the ratio always been 100:21 on the can as recommeded by the manufacturer or was it at one time 100:22 which agrees with the plans and then the manufacturer changed the at some point later? If the manufacturer changed his ratio, I don't remember seeing an update in the newsletters from Nat to change the balance ratio. I just started using the RAE so maybe it was in the newsletter before and since it did'nt apply, I just forgot. One other possibility is that Burt recommended a 100:22 mix ratio for some reason when all along the manufacturer's recommended ratio was 100:21. Some of my parts (almost a gallon's worth) are made at the 100:22 ratio. If it is suppose to be 100:21, are my parts still usable? That means I used 4.7 % too much hardner I looked back at the archives and only found mention once that Jim Hocut heard at Osh that a deviation of less than 5 % would be OK. John Fritz email Fritzx2 Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 08:56:11 -0800 From: Michael Antares Subject: COZY: RAE Mix Ratio I just looked at some old empty cans that date back a couple of years. They say 21 so apparently it has been that way for at least that long. I use a pump which is set up for the 4:1 liquid ratio so I have never done a weighing. I CAN say that my experience with the RAE epoxy leads me to suspect that it is rather forgiving and I personally wouldn't be concerned about the difference between 21 and 22. OTOH I'm no expert and a call to Hexcell might be in order. I would doubt very seriously if you have cause for concern though. Michael 6077 Old Redwood Highway Penngrove CA 94951 707.792.7971 Cozy#413 Finished through chap 14 except chap 13. Chaps 16 & 24 mostly finished. Now on chap 19 and 20. One wing/winglet finished, working on second. Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:25:37 -0500 From: ponciroli@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Subject: COZY: Epoxy sensitivity Especially for Mr. Howard Rogers and any others of you who are sensitive to epoxy. I too have suffered from being sensitive to epoxy. I bought a hobbyair at Oshkosh, It works. However you can't cheat. When you are sensitive to exopy, you must plan the layup carefully. Lay out all materials. Glass, peal,ply nails for holding things in place. When I am ready, I put a tearing agent in my eyes, barrier cream on my hands, then I don the mask and hood and stay under it while mixing, applying, and squeeging out the residue. Do not under any circumstances reenter the contaminated area until the the exothermic action is complete, then its safe to admire your handy work. I have built a hangar with a 36" fan in the back of the building to ventilate during large layups in warm weather, but I will still retain the mask and hood. The hobbyair draws fresh air from the outside and makes a positive air flow around the head and exits around the neck. If the sensitivity area is in the head area, this will work. Hope this helps. Oh by the way, I didn't become sensitive to epoxy until after working with it for two years. I use Hexcel 2427. Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:57:22 -0500 From: Rob Atencio Subject: Re: COZY: Epoxy sensitivity ponciroli@postoffice.worldnet.att.net wrote: > Oh by the way, I didn't become sensitive to epoxy until after working with > it for two years. I use Hexcel 2427. Out of curiousity, what were you doing, as far as protection, prior to becoming sensitized? -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob Atencio mailto:ratencio@coastalnet.com New Bern, NC Cozy MkIV #496 - Chpt 8 by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-5 #17060) with SMTP id <01IFJ7X2HWYM946ERR@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:18:14 EST Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:17:32 -0500 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: COZY: EZpoxy hardener??? Organization: AEROCAD INC. I have had a lot of calls about clumpy hardener over the past weeks and cold weather is taking it's toll. People who are using the Safe-t-poxy (EZ10/ EZ84) should store your hardener at or above 60 degrees. (up to 150 degrees) If you don't, the hardener can and will start to crystalize and thicken. It will go back to normal if you warm the container in warm to hot water. This will in no way hurt or change this resin system if it has ever crystalized. JUST KEEP IT WARM!! -- AeroCad Inc. Jeff Russell 1445 Crater Lane Yadkinville, NC. 27055 phone/ call first for fax 910-961-2238 NEW E-mail: JRAEROCAD@yadtel.net NEW web site: http://www.binary.net/aerocad NEW pictures http://ab00.larc.nasa.gov/~kleb/ac/aerocanard Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:48:33 -0500 (EST) From: TMKPIDA@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: EZpoxy hardener??? After a through pump cleaning, I just switched from 2427 to EZ Poxy and the 84 hardener. OK so it stinks a little. Not enough to annoy the neighbors more than 10 ft away and the layups look real good. I was having a serious confidence crisis with the 2427 stuff. Seems to wet out fine if epoxy is warmed to 80+ degrees. Related Questions. Will 80-90 degrees cook the epoxy over 3 months?? How long can you store BID and UNI if kraft paper wrapped and kept indoors? Thomas Kennedy #248 by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-5 #17060) with SMTP id <01IFKFJ0X92O94U9RP@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Tue, 18 Feb 1997 16:06:46 EST Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 16:06:13 -0500 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: EZpoxy hardener??? Organization: AEROCAD INC. TMKPIDA@aol.com wrote: > Will 80-90 degrees cook the epoxy over 3 months?? > How long can you store BID and UNI if kraft paper wrapped and kept indoors? Thomas, The resin and hardener can stay at 150 degrees for over a year Says the resin manufacturer. The hardener will darken the older it gets. No problem. If you want to check a cure of you resin system? let some cure in the bottom of a cup for 7 days at 77 degrees and scrach with a nail. If it scraches white (your cure is right). -- AeroCad Inc. Jeff Russell 1445 Crater Lane Yadkinville, NC. 27055 phone/ call first for fax 910-961-2238 NEW E-mail: JRAEROCAD@yadtel.net NEW web site: http://www.binary.net/aerocad Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 17:35:39 -0400 From: John Murphy Subject: COZY: Vinyl Ester I recently visited Phoenix Composites at the Williams Gateway Airport (formerly Williams AFB, my old UPT base). They build several composite planes for various buyers, mostly Glassairs and Lancairs but there was a Seawind 2000 in their hanger too. I asked what kind of epoxy they used and they said they use vinyl ester almost exclusively. I guess that's what the Glassair's plans call for. I'd like to know if anyone has tried using this on a Cozy or an EZ. And if not, what is wrong with using this type of epoxy? Is there some kind of moisture problem? I checked the spruce catalog and it's a little cheaper. John Murphy Long EZ N260EZ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 16:55:12 -0500 From: Mahan Subject: Re: COZY: Vinyl Ester John Murphy wrote: > > > I'd like to know if anyone has tried using this on a Cozy or an EZ. > Down here in east central Florida, I have not heard of any EZ-type aircraft being built with vinyl ester. Fred in Florida Long-EZ N86LE Defiant project Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 06:50:56 -0500 From: Jim Hocut Subject: Re: COZY: Vinyl Ester > I'd like to know if anyone has tried using this on a Cozy or an EZ. >And if not, what is wrong with using this type of epoxy? Is there >some kind of moisture problem? I checked the spruce catalog and it's >a little cheaper. The main problem is that the plane was designed with the epoxy system in mind. As I recall, vinyl ester resin shrinks ever so slightly as it cures whereas epoxy does not. You'd be introducing unkowns that you have no way of accounting for. It _probably_ would work OK, but why take the chance, the amount of money you'd save on an entire plane isn't going to be all that much. Jim Hocut jhocut@mindspring.com Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 07:09:53 -0500 From: Mahan Subject: Re: COZY: Vinyl Ester Rego Burger pointed out that vinyl exter resin dissolves polystyrene. That's the styrofoam used in all of the flying surfaces. If you have to learn to use epoxy to build these, why learn a new resin system just to build the tub and the strakes? Fred in Florida Long-EZ N86LE Defiant project Posted-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:35:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:35:33 -0600 From: Darren DeLoach Subject: COZY: PolyFiber's PolyEpoxy PolyFiber's site claims you can get this for "under $55 for a gallon kit" (obviously not from AS&S !), and what's more there's a more or less local supplier here so I wouldn't have to pay shipping. They claim better strength numbers than competing products (though no spec sheet was posted on their web site, http://www.polyfiber.com ). We used this stuff at the Alexander workshop this past weekend, and it seemed easy to use and the smell didn't bother me. Is anybody else using this product on their Cozy or other Rutan design? Anyone know of a reason NOT to use it? -- Darren DeLoach Sales & Software http://www.deloach.com by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-5 #17060) with SMTP id <01IGX9PGSN109AOG8W@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:08:58 EST Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:06:02 -0500 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: PolyFiber's PolyEpoxy Organization: AEROCAD INC. Darren DeLoach wrote: > > PolyFiber's site claims you can get this for "under $55 for a gallon kit" > (obviously not from AS&S !), and what's more there's a more or less local > supplier here so I wouldn't have to pay shipping. They claim better > strength numbers than competing products (though no spec sheet was posted on > their web site, http://www.polyfiber.com ). We used this stuff at the > Alexander workshop this past weekend, and it seemed easy to use and the > smell didn't bother me. > > Is anybody else using this product on their Cozy or other Rutan design? > Anyone know of a reason NOT to use it? As you know I teach one or both the Sportair classes on Composites. I have found that Polyepoxy works great if you keep the hardener closed untill used. Keep the moisture out!!! This is true with 2427 hardener. We NEED sometimes 5 hours jel time for vacuum bagging and the jel time for the Polyepoxy will not work well on this job. TEST, TEST, TEST the resin that you pick to use to make sure that your work shop does not have some bad (WATER) born problem that will show it's ugly head at a latter date. -- AeroCad Inc. Jeff Russell (Check out our web site for Cozy compatible parts and the AeroCanard) phone/ call first for fax 910-961-2238 E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com web site with NEW pictures under heavy construction: http://www.aerocad.com Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:33:51 -0500 From: ponciroli@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Subject: Re: COZY: PolyFiber's PolyEpoxy >PolyFiber's site claims you can get this for "under $55 for a gallon kit" >(obviously not from AS&S !), and what's more there's a more or less local >supplier here so I wouldn't have to pay shipping. They claim better >strength numbers than competing products (though no spec sheet was posted on >their web site, http://www.polyfiber.com ). We used this stuff at the >Alexander workshop this past weekend, and it seemed easy to use and the >smell didn't bother me. > >Is anybody else using this product on their Cozy or other Rutan design? >Anyone know of a reason NOT to use it? >-- Darren >DeLoach Sales & Software >http://www.deloach.com I have used Poyfiber epoxy as a substitute for 2427 Hexel with good results. They claim that it has a two cure process that requires a 140 degree cook in, however it reaches 90% of its strength without that heat treatment. The hardener is a very low viscosity. It mixes well and AC Spruce sells it in a three gallon bargain bach, but its not for under $55.00 a gallon. I think that I paid about $185.00 for three gallons, it was the least expensive epoxy that they had. Don Ponciroli - ponciroli@worldnet.att.net Posted-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 09:21:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 09:21:36 -0600 From: Darren DeLoach Subject: COZY: Results of Beginner's Epoxy Search I've spent quite a bit of time on the phone calling around about epoxies. Here are some early results, for those like me still in the decision phase for choosing an epoxy: 1. PolyFiber's PolyEpoxy -- Nat, as you can imagine, says it's not approved and use the newsletter list for the only approved epoxies. He personally hasn't seen a data sheet on it. I called Rutan Aircraft as well to see if Burt had approved it; they said that since they no longer sell plans, they also no longer test and approve epoxies, so this one hasn't been looked at. She said though most folks who were going the old Safe T Poxy route were now using EZ Poxy from CPD, but that if I wanted more info I might try Central States newletter to see if anyone out there was using PolyEpoxy. The best price I found was $55 / gallon from a dealer in Wichita Falls, TX (about 100 miles from here). I am shying away from this epoxy for two reasons: I found even better prices on approved epoxies, and with the as yet unknown nature of this one I'm not willing to bet my life on it. I'm no engineer, I don't have enough information to determine for myself whether this one would work OK for me or not, so I'll defer to the experts on this one! 2. AeroPoxy 2032/3660 -- This is a good candidate, particularly if you live near the manufacturer in California. It's approved, and PTM&W will sell it to you direct for $46.05/gallon in any quantity from 1 gallon up (contrast to $54/gal from AS&S, $53.15 from Wicks). Shipping UPS ground for 3 gallons from CA to me in TX was quoted at about $20 (if UPS ground, _NO_ hazmat fees), for an effective cost of $52.72 per gallon shipping included, no sales tax; if you live in NY, your shipping will be a little higher. Note that according to PTM&W, the story about 2032/3660 in the AS&S catalog is completely WRONG! 2032 is _NOT_ being phased out, in fact it's the 2095 and 2225 which are being dropped. They still have a little bit of 2225 left at $10 more per gallon, but as soon as it's all gone there won't be any more. I don't know if the the AS&S story about problems with moisture is true or not (given the rest of their story was incorrect), I'll call PTM&W back today and question carefully. 3. EZPoxy -- Composite Polymer Design (CPD) makes this as a Safe T Poxy equivalent. This stuff seemed like it would be pretty expensive (AS&S: $83.29/gal!) I was unable to find a phone number to contact CPD directly, but a WWWeb search found me http://www.cmi-composites.com which claimed to sell it. I called, and after a bit of searching (they don't sell a lot of it) got what seems like a great quote. They don't stock it, and need 1-2 weeks lead time for shipping. They quoted it out by weight: 40 lb EZ-10 resin @ 4.75/lb, 17.6 lb EZ-83 hardener (2 hrs pot life) @ 6.30/lb, total cost = $ 300.88 for.... what I _think_ is around 7 gallons, or $42.98/gal! Almost half of what AS&S wants! Note their web site says they also carry QCell, micro, etc. so it might be a good one-stop shop for the basics. One thing to note, though, is that CMI is basically set up to sell to other companies, not homebuilders, so if you call you might want to give your company name to make them feel better. They have offices all over the place, I called the one in Van Buren, AR as it was closest to me. The guy (Alan Wolf) seemed to think that a hazmat fee might apply, so the real cost may be closer to $50/gal plus shipping, but this is so far lower than $80/gallon that it probably doesn't matter. If you live near any of the CMI offices (and there are a LOT of them) so that you can pick it up yourself, it's probably the best deal going! Since it's pretty humid here in nothern Texas, I plan on spending some more phone time pinning down which of these two, Aeropoxy or EZPoxy, will be best suited to to my climate, but from a cost it hardly matters which I choose since the prices are so far less than I would've had to pay Wicks or AS&S. Incidentally, West epoxies are approved and yes, you can find some dealers on the net, but I discarded this one because of the low gel times. The "slow" hardener only gets you 30-40 minutes pot life (contrast to 90+ minutes for other epoxies). As a beginner I'm not sure I can work that fast! -- Darren DeLoach Sales & Software http://www.deloach.com Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 10:27:40 -0800 From: berkut@loop.com Subject: Re: COZY: Results of Beginner's Epoxy Search Take a look at CPD's AR9283 hardener and AR2127 resin. I don't know how it is with moisture but it works great for us., and it's very innexpensive. -- Czech Sikhs! Richard Riley "Heavier than air flying machines are impossible." Lord Kelvin, President, Royal Society, c 1895 See the Berkut at http://www.berkut.com by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-5 #17060) with SMTP id <01IGYMJUEA6C99I0XD@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:27:04 EST Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:23:53 -0500 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: COZY: Re: Results on Epoxy Search Organization: AEROCAD INC. Darren DeLoach wrote: > 2. AeroPoxy 2032/3660 -- This is a good candidate > I don't know if the the AS&S story about problems with moisture is true or > not (given the rest of their story was incorrect), I'll call PTM&W back > today and question carefully. > 3. EZPoxy -- Composite Polymer Design (CPD) makes this as a Safe T Poxy > equivalent. This stuff seemed like it would be pretty expensive (AS&S: > $83.29/gal!) I was unable to find a phone number to contact CPD directly, > but a WWWeb search found me http://www.cmi-composites.com which claimed to > sell it. I called, and after a bit of searching (they don't sell a lot of > it) got what seems like a great quote. They don't stock it, and need 1-2 > weeks lead time for shipping. They quoted it out by weight: 40 lb EZ-10 > resin @ 4.75/lb, 17.6 lb EZ-83 hardener (2 hrs pot life) @ 6.30/lb, total > Since it's pretty humid here in nothern Texas> Be careful about pricing resin systems out. If the mixing is 100/28 or 100/44 then the KIT should have more total quantity in volume. We sell the EZ system by weight as did Hexcel with the Safe-t-poxy. 8 lbs resin and 3.5 lbs hardener, that get a total of 11.5 lbs When compairing price you must ask how much total weight in a gal kit are you pricing??? 4.75 x 8 = $38.00 and 6.30 x 3.5 = $22.05 That makes a gal kit priced at $60.50 add shipping to us and containers to can the stuff and this is where our $65.00 per gal kit come from. Why do we sell resin? As you can see, we are not making money on us selling this EZ system to you guys. It makes our cash flow go smoother when purchasing 500 lbs of each and every order. If water is a problem? Stay away from PTM&W and use something with styrene as a better choice. It will give a much better results! -- AeroCad Inc. Jeff Russell (Check out our web site for Cozy compatible parts and the AeroCanard) phone/ call first for fax 910-961-2238 E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com web site with NEW pictures under heavy construction: http://www.aerocad.com Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com Posted-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:19:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:19:26 -0600 From: Darren DeLoach Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Results on Epoxy Search >Be careful about pricing resin systems out. If the mixing is 100/28 or 100/44 >then the KIT should have more total quantity in volume. > >We sell the EZ system by weight as did Hexcel with the Safe-t-poxy. >8 lbs resin and 3.5 lbs hardener, that get a total of 11.5 lbs > >When compairing price you must ask how much total weight in a gal kit >are you pricing??? 4.75 x 8 = $38.00 and 6.30 x 3.5 = $22.05 >That makes a gal kit priced at $60.50 add shipping to us and containers to >can the stuff and this is where our $65.00 per gal kit come from. > Aha! Thanks for the pointing out the pricing for EZPoxy, $60 per gal is a good deal different than 40-something per gallon! My primary goal in starting this quest was to find local suppliers (or at least, suppliers I could easily drive to) for any of the heavy or nasty stuff; partly, I try to support local businesses when possible, so even at the _same_ price I'd take it from a local guy over mail-order. As it has turned out, PolyEpoxy is the only one I can get locally and it's not approved, so in that sense the search has been a failure, though I've learned a bit more about epoxies generally along the way. OTOH, I _can_ get the foams, so it's not a complete loss... and as Nat pointed out when I asked him about PolyEpoxy, the best I can hope to do here is save maybe $200 on an airplane that may cost me $30K in the end! Still, at this beginning stage of the project, the epoxy is one of my larger costs so any controlling I can do for the identical product (ie. no sacrifice of safety) is worth it; I'll have this same exercise, I'm sure, with other components along the way. I'm definitely in the category of person with more time than money, so the shopping around is a good trade-off for me (and I like doing it). I talked to PTM&W today ("Scott" in technical support) about humidity problems, they said that the Aeropoxy had been reformulated a year or so ago to prevent several reported humidity problems, including amine blush, and that the new formula could be left in an epoxy pump indefinitely (assuming the lid was on the containers). He said there was another Texas builder last year who used the new formulation with no problems, and that if I had some particular concern I could just peel ply everything and it would be a non-issue. Is your concern about Aeropoxy and humidity based on the new formulation (i.e. do you have more information than the PTM&W guy was willing to tell me that I should know?) One thing I liked about PTM&W is no MDA. -- Darren DeLoach Sales & Software http://www.deloach.com Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:43:10 -0800 From: rfisher@spacetech.com Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Results on Epoxy Search Jeff Russell wrote: >>When compairing price you must ask how much total weight in a gal kit >>are you pricing??? 4.75 x 8 = $38.00 and 6.30 x 3.5 = $22.05 >>That makes a gal kit priced at $60.50 add shipping to us and containers to >>can the stuff and this is where our $65.00 per gal kit come from. >> I too am in the final decision phase concerning the epoxy to use. Earlier, Darren DeLoach mentioned that EZPoxy was $83 per gallon in AS&S's catalog. My '96-'97 catalog lists the price as $83.29 for _1.5_ gallons - that puts the effective price at $55.53 per gallon - cheaper than Jeff's, but not as cheap as his other supplier. For those of us on the east coast, though, shipping may be less from AS&S East. One thing that interested me about EZPoxy was the low (150 deg) post-cure temperature for an apparent 25% increase in strength. With some scrap plywood, duct tape and a couple of electric heaters, one could make an enclosure around critical parts like wings and canard to post-cure them without the guesswork involved with the sunshine method. Am I all wet here or is this feasable? PTM&W, OTOH, has a post-cure temp of 250 deg - much more difficult to obtain. I do like the idea of no MDA, though. This data was taken from AS&S's catalog, and could be all wrong anyway. Darren, do you have the manufacturers phone numbers for these two so I can talk to their tech people about this? Thanks. Sheesh! Can't someone make an epoxy with all the Right Stuff!?! See ya, Russ Fisher Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 06:33:09 -0500 From: Jim Hocut Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Results on Epoxy Search >One thing that interested me about EZPoxy was the low (150 deg) post-cure temperature >for an apparent 25% increase in strength. With some scrap plywood, duct tape and a >couple of electric heaters, one could make an enclosure around critical parts like wings >and canard to post-cure them without the guesswork involved with the sunshine method. >Am I all wet here or is this feasable? Very feasible, I made an "oven" for post-curing my canard, heated it w/ 5 100 Watt light bulbs (shielded the canard from direct radiation w/ alum. foil suspended from the sides of the thing), put a muffin fan on each end to circulate air, and drilled several holes for measuring temp. It achieved a post-cure temp of 145, and it was uniform +- about 2 degrees. > >PTM&W, OTOH, has a post-cure temp of 250 deg - much more difficult to obtain. CAREFUL!!!!! The foam we use melts at about 160 - 170, I wouldn't want to go above 145 or 150 deg F. Jim Hocut jhocut@mindspring.com by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-5 #17060) with SMTP id <01IH9FNVMU2K99SINQ@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:08:59 EST Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 08:04:06 -0500 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Results on Epoxy Search Organization: AEROCAD INC. rfisher@spacetech.com wrote: > I too am in the final decision phase concerning the epoxy to use. Earlier, Darren > DeLoach mentioned that EZPoxy was $83 per gallon in AS&S's catalog. My '96-'97 catalog > lists the price as $83.29 for _1.5_ gallons - that puts the effective price at $55.53 > per gallon - cheaper than Jeff's, but not as cheap as his other supplier. For those of > us on the east coast, though, shipping may be less from AS&S East. Russ, Our price of $65.00 per gal is also a 1.5 gal kit same as AS$S -- AeroCad Inc. Jeff Russell Posted-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:12:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 09:12:07 -0600 From: Darren DeLoach Subject: FYI: PolyEpoxy technical info Although I don't plan to use PolyEpoxy for several reasons (I'm not a materials engineer so I plan to stick with one of the approved epoxies), I did just get in a big packet of info from PolyFiber including MSDSs for PolyEpoxy and SuperLite filler, plus test data. I'll repeat the crucial data here for anyone who's still shopping and wants to compare, and doesn't mind the "not approved" nature of the product... PolyEpoxy 77 deg cure then 140 degree post cure (range is 140-170 deg, 140 deg optimum) MECHANICAL PROPERTIES Tensile Strength 9600 psi Elongation at Break 7.5% Tensile Modulus 470,000 psi Flexural Strength 19,000 psi Flexural Modulus 515,000 psi Compressive Strength 32,000 psi Shore D Hardness 82 Glass Transition Temp 72 deg C (161 deg F) Heat Distortion Temp 64 deg C (147 deg F) Water Immersion Weight Gain, 140 deg F 30 days -- 2.8% Fracture Toughness 2700 K1c lbs sqr(inch) Critical Strain Energy 2600 j/m2 Mixing 3 to 1 by weight, 10 to 4 by volume Pot Life 105 min (100 grams), 75 min (1 qt) Mold Open Time 3-4 hrs Tack Free Time 5-6 hrs (there's more data on the sheet giving mech. properties with various cloths, including fiberglass, kevlar and graphite, using their "unique two stage cure".) ------------------------------------------------ One thing that leaps out at me is the relatively low Tg: 161 degrees F after a 140 degree post cure. Aren't other epoxies claiming more like 190 degrees? One interesting note from the literature pack: "Respirators are not necessary with Poly Epoxy because of the low vapor pressure of the resin. Do not spray Poly Epoxy." And from the MSDS: "Respiratory Protection: Normally not required in good ventilation. Use appropriate NIOSH approved equipment in poor ventilation." (Of course, they did recommend the usual gloves, goggles, body clothing, etc.) Obviously, it's your body and your health at stake, so do what you think is right... You can get the same info pack I got from Poly Fiber by calling 800-362-3490, be sure to ask for the MSDS sheets. Too much to fax, they have to mail it to you. -- Darren DeLoach Sales & Software http://www.deloach.com Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:03:57 -0800 From: rfisher@spacetech.com Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Results on Epoxy Search On Thu, 03 Apr 1997, Jeff S Russell wrote: >Russ, Our price of $65.00 per gal is also a 1.5 gal kit same as >AS$S Well, that's a horse of a different color! I will probably be contacting you for some. Are the specs in AS&S's catalog correct as far as strength goes? How well does EZPoxy handle humidity? My basement here in upstate New York reached 75% - 80% in the summer. See ya, Russ Fisher Posted-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:03:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 14:04:54 -0600 From: Darren DeLoach Subject: COZY: FYI: Aeropoxy details I just talked to Aeropoxy to clear up some misinformation from the AS&S catalog. The bottom line: Post cure temp is 150 degrees F, for a glass transition temp Tg of 196 degrees F (NOT 250 degrees post cure as claimed in the AS&S catalog). BTW, "Scott" is their tech, and the phone number is 800-421-1518. The $46.05 gallon kit gets you 7.5 lb resin and 2 lbs (1qt) of hardener, for a net little bit over 1 gallon (but NOT 1.5 gal, which is how Jeff sells EZPoxy). So the bottom line on costs of EZPoxy vs Aeropoxy: Jeff sells EZPoxy for $65/1.5 gal(or $43.33/gal. to compare apples to apples). You get known good results in humid locations, but it does have MDA and you'd have to decide for yourself if the carcinogenic possibility is significant to you (and your family) or not. Since Jeff is on the East coast, after adding in shipping I suspect Jeff has the best net price per gallon. CMI Composites also sells EZPoxy at about $61/1.5 gal and is closer to the Central US for shipping charges, but apparently sells in a minimum of 5 gallon quantity so you'd have to buy a lot up front even if you didn't need so much, plus you'd miss out on Jeff's knowledge applying this resin to canard aircraft in particular. PTM&W sells Aeropoxy for $46.05/1.x gal, probably in the same range as Jeff's $43/gal price so there is no cost factor either way. The advantage is no MDA, the disadvantage is a historical problem with amine blush in humid climes, though PTM&W claims to have fixed this a little over a year ago. If you are on the West coast, shipping charges may make PTM&W a good buy. If you live in the Central US (like me), there appears to be no cost savings to be had either way, since shipping will hit you equally bad from both locations. Your decision will likely be based solely on whether you fear carcinogens or fear problems with humidity more ! -- Darren DeLoach Sales & Software http://www.deloach.com Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:11:27 -0700 From: rfisher@spacetech.com Subject: Re: COZY: Results of Beginner's Epoxy Search Following up on Darren DeLoach's post concerning epoxy selection, I called PTM&W today and spoke to Scott. He seems well informed and sounded more like a tech than a salesman. He quoted the same price of $46.05/gal to me in any quantity, HOWEVER, the price will be increasing to $70.20/gal on Apr 15. It seems the boss wants to discourage direct sales in small quantities. He didn't think the price would increase at the retail level. The current pail price is $276.85 increasing to $332.10 on the 15th. If you're going to purchase epoxy from them, particularly if you are on the west coast where shipping is minimal, you'd better order fast! Even if you wait, it's still the cheapest system available from the retailers. Concerning post-cure. Scott said that the cured epoxy would eventually reach full cure with the Tg of 195 degrees on its own (many days), post-curing it at 150 degrees for about 4 hours (his recommendation) would get it there in, well, 4 hours. If you're in no hurry, and can leave critical pieces such as wings and canard in their jigs while the epoxy cures over several days, there is no need for post-cure. If, however, you want to keep moving, best to put some heat to the parts while they can be supported to prevent creeping or warping. I plan to use some rigid building insulation (the stuff with the aluminized backing) to form a box over the curing parts right on the building table. This stuff is light enough that duct tape will hold it together. A small ceramic heater or two directed into the box with muffin fans to circulate the air should do the job. With regards to humidity, Scott said they reformulated the system sometime in '95 to reduce amine blush. He said peel plying as much as possible will also eliminate it while at the same time providing an easier surface to finish. I asked him about resin starvation and he said that most builders use too much resin anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem. Scott also confirmed that 2032 IS THE CURRENT PRODUCT with 3660 being the 1-hour hardener. If you want a longer pot life, use 3665 which is a 2-hour hardener. I thanked Scott profusely for taking so much time with me, and he replied that he wished all builders would call him (or any manufacturer) for technical information on a product that they are going to bet their lives on. He's sending me a full product package with MSDS's and then heading for Sun & Fun on Tuesday. I assume he's staffing their booth. Boy, I wish my employer would PAY me to go! I feel very comfortable using this epoxy on my bird, especially considering that is has no MDA. That fact plus today's conversation convinced me to choose it over E-Z Poxy. See ya, Russ Fisher by DEV.InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.0-8 #17060) id <01IHQWRPC4QC8WVYK6@DEV.InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:21:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:24:01 -0400 From: "Jeff S. Russell" Subject: COZY: Re: Results on Epoxy Search Organization: AEROCAD INC. rfisher@spacetech.com wrote: > Are the specs in AS&S's catalog correct as far as strength goes? > How well does EZPoxy handle humidity? Russ, any resin system that adds styrene in the hardener will have little or not have any water problems. The doctors told me the only way MDA would be a problem to your system you must first get large amounts in you and before your liver would see a cancer problem your skin would first be falling off and blisters that you can't imagine. The resin systems that the hardener smells like ammonia will damage your respiratory because the fumes are much lighter and tend to hang around your head. The Safe-t poxy was made to be heavy and to linger around the floor to 3 feet high. Most people could use this system a little better because of that. Move the air, use gloves and KEEP this battery acid off you. -- AeroCad Inc. Jeff Russell (Check out our web site for Cozy compatible parts and the AeroCanard) phone/ call first for fax 910-961-2238 E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com web site with NEW pictures under heavy construction: http://www.aerocad.com Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com by DEV.InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.0-8 #17060) id <01IHRLC2K8JO8WVYK6@DEV.InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:05:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:07:16 -0400 From: "Jeff S. Russell" Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Results on Epoxy Search Organization: AEROCAD INC. rfisher@spacetech.com wrote: > Do these fumes remain during the entire cure phase (6 - 10 hours)? only untill you reach the jelling process 2-3 hours, depends on how cool your shop is. -- AeroCad Inc. Jeff Russell Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 23:00:03 -0400 From: David Domeier Subject: COZY: 2427 epoxy and 100LL For what it is worth, when I read about the 86LM accident last year, I took a piece of scrap material from my strakes and submerged it in a quart of 100LL. It's been in there ever since and has not changed one iota. I am not going to cut my strakes open dd MKIV #155 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 20:05:54 -0700 From: rfisher@spacetech.com Subject: Re: COZY: Pre-made BID Tapes on molded tanks On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Jeff S Russell wrote: >Russ, It is the only resin system that I have not had problems with >water and peel strength. The new PTM&W system was tested by us and 2427 >with bad peel strength in the wet winter time and the only kind that worked >for us EVERY time was SAFE-T-POXY. This could be to water in the glass and >foam and resin. Jeff, Wow, now I'm really beginning to second-guess my choice of epoxy. A while back when there was hot and heavy discussion about epoxies, the only system that really had any negative feedback was 2427. I chose Aeropoxy because of PTM&W's assurance that it was superior to the other systems (marketing hype?), no MDA, good price, no negative feedback from builders, and excellent tech support from the manuf. Have I made a mistake? Are there any other builders out there using it with good/bad results? See ya, Russ Fisher Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 17:41:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Nigel Field Subject: Re: COZY: Pre-made BID Tapes on molded tanks At 08:05 PM 4/30/97 -0700, Russ Fisher wrote: ....... I chose Aeropoxy because of PTM&W's >assurance that it was superior to the other systems (marketing hype?), no MDA, >good price, no negative feedback from builders, and excellent tech support from >the manuf. Have I made a mistake? Are there any other builders out there using it with good/bad results? Hi Russ, I recently got 1 Gal each of PTMW Aeropoxy, West Pro-set 125/229, RAEF 2426/2176, a small sample kit of System Three with fast hardener, and by good fortune 5 gals unopened of 2410/2184 Safety Poxy. I have made wheel pants with the RAEF, a carbon intake manifold with the PTMW, some cowling work with the Pro-Set, and only a sample layup with the System 3. My Cozy project is built exclusively with 2410/2184 Safety Poxy. I havent performed any formal structural tests on any of them as one of our builders did all this and published it some months back. But I can offer a purely subjective opinion of what I found. The System Three is hard to wet out and exotherms in the cup within a few minutes. The cured layup was sticky to the touch after 2 days but seemed OK otherwise. I don't think anyone approves it for aircraft structural layups. I don't like it much and don't plan to use it. The PTMW Aeropoxy was nice to work with, wet out well and cured without any sticky surface. The part was later post cured at 180F and appears to be excellent. I would have no hesitation using this product further. The Pro-set was the best for wet out, the glass soaks it up almost instantly, delightfull to work with and a good pot life. It took a day longer to cure and did have a very slight sticky surface which dissapeared with some heat from a heat lamp. It also appears to be OK structurally but it smells awfull and its a bit pricey. I would have no hesitation using this product further either. The RAEF 2126/2176 wet out about the same as Aeropoxy but cured to touch in about 5 hours and could be sanded the next day with no sticky surface. My new VE wheel pants are made from it and I really liked the fast cure. I will certainly use this again for certain small parts like side consols, wheel pants etc. The 2410/2184 is harder to wet out than PTMW or Pro-set but with a little heat its fine to work with. It is still my favorite despite the MDA and other warnings. Lets face it all epoxy is poison to Humans so just ensure you are protected. My only bitch with it is the short shelf life of the hardner once opened it tends to go dark and thicken but still cures OK. I have grown to trust it over the years and make all my critical parts like spars etc with it. It is still my first choice. But to answer your question from what I have seen so far in our cool (hell, bloody cold) Canadian climate with indoor winter layups where the relative humidity is low, I don't see any obvious problems with PTMW Aeropoxy. Many folks are using it with good results. You may want to try a test layup over a cured, or partially cured layup to check on peel strength before you get to the really important parts like spars just to confirm it is compatible with your working environment. It would be my second choice however if I was building an entire project with it. Just my offerings. Nigel Field Subaru vari-eze no home page Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:10:56 -0700 From: rfisher@spacetech.com Subject: Re: COZY: Pre-made BID Tapes on molded tanks On Thu, 1 May 1997, Nigel Field wrote: >But to answer your question from what I have seen so far in our cool (hell, >bloody cold) Canadian climate with indoor winter layups where the relative >humidity is low, I don't see any obvious problems with PTMW Aeropoxy. Many >folks are using it with good results. You may want to try a test layup over >a cured, or partially cured layup to check on peel strength before you get >to the really important parts like spars just to confirm it is compatible >with your working environment. It would be my second choice however if I was >building an entire project with it. Nigel, Thanks, you've boosted my confidence. I do plan on several test layups and will report the results here. I'm not really concerned with winter building, the humidity is low enough than I'm sure any of the systems mentioned (except System Three) would be fine. It's the summertime layups that bother me...we'll see. Thanks again for your input. See ya, Russ Fisher Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:51:47 -0700 From: Eric Westland Subject: re: COZY: 2427 epoxy and 100LL >For what it is worth, when I read about the 86LM accident last year, I >took a piece of scrap material from my strakes and submerged it in a >quart of 100LL. It's been in there ever since and has not changed one >iota. I am not going to cut my strakes open > >dd > >MKIV #155 David, I have had my samples soaking for two months now and observed the same. My samples consist of strake cut outs and a large sample lay up I made for this test. Since I was sanding, I had some 2427 that was left in the bottom of my pump for 6+ months, so I used it for some of the test the test samples. I have them soaking in 100LL and mogas. The mogas is Arco unleaded and has alcholol added to it for the winter months to reduce city emissions, or so they say. Prior to weighing them, I took them out to our high school and weighed them on two scales that are accurate to 0.0015 grams. I figured that if something was desolving away, weighing them would tell me. I shake up the jars every few days to make sure they stay wet (the pieces with foam float). Two months is not a long time (I'm many months away from flying), but I took them out and re-weighed them. At this point, there is no measurable loss and they still scratch white. If that changes, I'll be sure to pass it on, but for now, I'm with you. If someone has any suggestions on how I may improve my "scientific method", I'd appreciate a note. -eric Eric Westland Cozy Mark IV - Still sanding Mukilteo, Washington Subject: COZY: epoxy and diesel fuel Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:03:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "Randy Smith" Hi all, With all the talk of epoxy and fuel compatibility, I was wondering if any of ya'll (sorry, I can't help that :-)) have any epoxy/cloth samples soaking in diesel/jet fuel? Any EZ-Poxy? (the stuff that Jeff re-sells) I would really like to think that I could afford to hang one of those new diesels on my cozy (Zoche/Universal/Renault/Continental) by the time I get to that stage. I need to plan for any additional things regarding diesel/jet fuel system requirements. -Randy "still orbiting the pre-build strange attractor" Smith --* --- -* **-* *-** -*-- -* Watch this space for COZY progress |Cozy MkIV| NCR General Purpose Computing Randy.Smith@ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |---( )---| Global Support Center Voice 803-939-7648, V+ 633-7648 ___o/o\o___ West Columbia, SC 29170 "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." -JC Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 15:56:31 -0500 From: tpierce@ghg.net (Terence J. Pierce) Subject: COZY: EZ-10 Epoxy Here is a question I sent to Jeff Russell this morning. I haven't heard back from him yet and wanted to do a layup tonight. So if you know please let me know quickly. Thanks >I am using an epoxy pump, and was wondering what the EZ poxy ratio was >for volume? I see it is 100 to 44 by weight. >Also I couldn't find any unwaxed mixing cups at SAM's. I did buy 20 >clear plastic solo "brand name" cups. Will these be alright to use >until I can get some paper cups? >Thanks, >Terry Pierce by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-5 #17060) with SMTP id <01IIN4BOCYXQ9767C6@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Thu, 8 May 1997 21:43:24 EST Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 21:40:54 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: COZY: Re: EZ Poxy Organization: AEROCAD INC. Terence J. Pierce wrote: > I am using an epoxy pump, and was wondering what the EZ poxy ratio was > for volume? I see it is 100 to 44 by weight. It is 100 to 45 by volume > Also I couldn't find any unwaxed mixing cups at SAM's. I did buy 20 > clear plastic solo "brand name" cups. Will these be alright to use > until I can get some paper cups? Just make sure you mix well at the bottom if the bottom is not flat. -- AeroCad Inc. Jeff Russell Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 19:12:24 -0700 From: Mahan Subject: Re: COZY: EZ-10 Epoxy Terry, don't worry about the ratio -- it's slightly different by volume vs. by weight. The pump meters it out by volume -- it's either 41 to 100 or 42 to 100, I forget. Plastic cups are used by everyone -- just don't drink out of them first! Fred in Florida Long-EZ N86LE Defiant project Terence J. Pierce wrote: > > Here is a question I sent to Jeff Russell this morning. I haven't heard > back from him yet and wanted to do a layup tonight. So if you know > please let me know quickly. > > Thanks > > >I am using an epoxy pump, and was wondering what the EZ poxy ratio was > >for volume? I see it is 100 to 44 by weight. > > >Also I couldn't find any unwaxed mixing cups at SAM's. I did buy 20 > >clear plastic solo "brand name" cups. Will these be alright to use > >until I can get some paper cups? > > >Thanks, > > >Terry Pierce by SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (PMDF V5.1-7 #16063) with SMTP id <01IINPDEWE0U000DGL@SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Fri, 9 May 1997 07:46:31 PST Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 07:48:21 -0800 From: hrogers@SLAC.Stanford.edu (Howard Rogers) Subject: re: COZY: 2427 epoxy and 100LL Eric Westland writes: > >I have them soaking in 100LL and mogas. The mogas is Arco unleaded and has >alcholol added to it for the winter months to reduce city emissions, or so >they say. Eric, Since I burn enormous quantities of mogas on my commute (about 1300 hours or more, so far) in my Grumman, I have followed the winter addition of additives issue pretty closely. In California, Arco seems to alternate. The first year or two (can't remember for sure) they used MTBE. That was followed by at least one year of alcohol, then MTBE, then alcohol, etc. This particular winter, they have been using MTBE again. It is smelly, but it is a fine additive, and EAA/Harry Zeisloft et al. have checked it out thoroughly and given it an enthusiastic thumbs up on all counts, for aircraft use. I don't know what ARCO is doing in Washington this year, but you might give them a call. Alcohol is a bad guy for aircraft, in general, and is very emphatically and specifically excluded from my mogas STC, so I have to be very careful. Fortunately, California is one of the states that requires the use of alcohol to be posted on pumps. That isn't true in all states, and I'm not sure about Wa. MTBE is wicked smelling stuff, and I have often wondered about its effect on the epoxies we use, since most of the testing was done before its widespread introduction. If you could find out which one is in your test sample, I'd sure appreciate it. A close EZ building friend of mine spoke with the engineer who designed Safe-T-Poxy back when it was made by Hexcell. He said that a thorough post cure, if done soon enough after layup, would greatly enhance the already good fuel resistant properties of Safe-T-Poxy. I planned my final layups and internal tank-slathering very carefully, so that I could do the following: Very soon after the layup was cured, I filled the tanks with nearly boiling water and sealed them up for a day. When I drained the water over 24 hours later, it was still too hot to immerse your fingers in! All I did to enhance the already good insulating properties of the tank, was to pile some blankets and sleeping bags on top of the tank. I feel that I have done the best I can do for chemical resistance. I hope they don't throw any more new chemicals at us, in the meantime. For those of you who are dyed-in-the-wool supporters of "avgas only", just wait a bit. It won't be too long before we are all in the same boat, anyway. Let's just hope that when they do away with 100LL, etc. that they make the wise decision to certify everything flying for one form or another of mogas, since it exists everywhere already. Makes no sense to create another expensive parallel fuel. Cheaper gas can certainly help encourage the whole industry out of the doldrums, too. > >Prior to weighing them, I took them out to our high school and weighed them >on two scales that are accurate to 0.0015 grams. I figured that if >something was desolving away, weighing them would tell me. I shake up the >jars every few days to make sure they stay wet (the pieces with foam float). This certainly sounds scientific, but could there also be a possibility of an effect that would cause the test samples to swell and GAIN weight? Or both? (Just playing devil's advocate. I have no specific reason to think so.) >Eric Westland >Cozy Mark IV - Still sanding >Mukilteo, Washington --Howard Rogers, 415-926-4052 hrogers@slac.stanford.edu by SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (PMDF V5.1-7 #16063) with SMTP id <01IIO6262Y60000GIR@SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Fri, 9 May 1997 15:43:49 PST Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 15:45:40 -0800 From: hrogers@SLAC.Stanford.edu (Howard Rogers) Subject: re: COZY: 2427 epoxy and 100LL >Great response (again). Aw shucks > >They put the sticker on the pumps here as well, but it is never very >specific. In addition, they blend for geographic regions, to satisfy the >EPA and probably to stretch whatever they have on hand. They supposedly do that here, as well, but the guy at the Arco distribution plant told me that it was easier and cheaper, in the long run, to just supply the same brew to the whole North California area. I'm not sure what's happening in South California. He also told me (during the first MTBE cycle) that the reason that Arco decided not use alcohol was because of all the customer dissatisfaction they had observed, and didn't want to deal with. Alcohol was cheaper, but Arco wanted to do the right thing, by its customers (paraphrasing). The next season, they switched to alcohol. Hmmm. What should we infer from this? >I decided to test >some samples in auto gas as well because I had read reports (and been told >by Nat) that there was some history of mogas causing problems in some >plastic planes, so I wanted to give my 2427 samples every oportunity to >disolve. Let me know if you have 2427 strakes and I'll be sure to include >you on any "non-group" discussions/posting I do. I have always used Safe-T-Poxy (and glad of it, now). I only have a little glass work to go, so I'm not too concerned about the toxicity. It's probably too late for me, anyway (hack, choke). >Your idea of post curing the tanks with hot water is a great one. I later >filled mine with water to flush/test them, but it never occurred to me to >try hot water. Thanks, but it wasn't my idea. It worked well, but it is a pain to boil that much water at once! I had every stove-burner and Coleman stove all going at once! Had to borrow a couple more large pots from neighbors. I hope it was worth it. > >-eric > >Eric Westland >Cozy Mark IV - Still sanding >Mukilteo, Washington --Howard Rogers, 415-926-4052 hrogers@slac.stanford.edu From: "Frank" Subject: COZY: 2427 epoxy Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 20:14:40 -0400 ---------- Last week I was in Atlanta GA. While there I saw some very bad results from 2427 . I also had questions on the safety poxy I was using, so I made a call to Hexel. The real suprize came when I asked about the 2427, boy did the engineer there give me a ear full! He expressed that the use of this epoxy was not for home building, as most of us do not have the equipment to properly use it. The problem with moisture (he said) might be a factor in high humidity (would not quote a percentage) but that was not the major problem. The primary cause for failure is that it quickly reacts with carbon dioxide in the air. Just opening the cover on the can and closing it is enough to cause it to go bad. ( This will show up as crystals on the surface of the epoxy or a firm or hard skim coat depending on how much C02 got in the container. It should (this word was used with a loud increase in volume and tone, as if to say it must!) be stored in a nitrogen filled holding area to keep C02 away! Vacuum bagged during cure, and always use a peal ply layer. Next he felt that because 2427 is thinner than other epoxys, too much of it is being removed as we finish the layup. Then we let it cure in open air with no peal ply and again it reacts with C02 and we get a job that is good only for the trash can. I have deliberately not used his name as he was kind enough to warn us and I don't want to cost him his job. I erased it from my notes and records and will forget it on purpose. To those of you who use it good luck. Please be carefull, many lives and reputations are at stake. It is not often that someone will risk his job to protect other people. I hope we all listen. I don't think we will get another chance. > > Frank Johanson > ics@cdh.net > Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:04:55 -0700 From: Rego and Noleen Burger Organization: R.N.B. Enterprises Subject: Re: COZY: 2427 epoxy Thanks Frank for the Frank warning :-) Many have used it on wings and strakes, what we need is a flying history of the system. Sure it needs a stricter regime when working with it. We found in our table of anonimous samples tested that it featured quite good on structural stifness and strength, on par with many other systems. Interlam shear was tested by and independant lab as they had the machines for them and those figures were reasonable. The only questions that have not been answered is HOW MANY have been flying sucessfully? Rego Burger CZ4 #139 P.E. RSA Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 08:55:48 +0200 From: Rego Burger Subject: COZY: Epoxy 2427 and FLYING craft! Hi All epoxy users. I was going through some photo's from my "stay" in Johannesburg and Pretoria days, on one of them I was reminded of a builder near Chris van Hoof by the name of John putting a Kiss 4 together, guess what Epoxy comes in the kit. YEP 2427! The spars are bonded with a grey stuff, I forget the name but all the taping and joining etc. on the rest is done with 2427, if this system is so bad someone better warn them too! Naturally the kit is Factory made but it's the weakest link in the chain that causes problems. One supplier I spoke too said that post cure improves peel strength, with all the advice who's right? I feel every bit helps, samples I've had from off cuts DO seem stiffer now than early tests. One would guess this stuff gets better with age like wine:-) Heat curing seems to achieve this in a shorter time. Hint to Chris van Hoof up in JHB - if you have and left over samples from the last tests try finding your alpha code chart and see if you have a 2427 sample there, it would be interesting to see if it is indeed stiffer after some time.:-) BOTTOM LINE - anyone out there flying with a 2427 wing ( outboard ) and strake? We would ideally like ten reports of different ones, we've heard of the debris fuel storey but more good or bad will help to assess the odds of this stuff being real bad. Rego Burger Port Elizabeth RSA ( Rep. South Africa ) cozy Mk 4 # 139 From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Epoxy switch Date: Wed, 28 May 97 17:04:00 EDT People; As I mentioned in a previous message, I switched epoxies recently - from Hexcel 2427 to EZ10/84. I did this because I could no longer get 2427 from either Wicks or ACS, and I'm approaching the strake construction, and wanted to have a time tested epoxy to contain the gasoline (although I don't believe that there would have been a problem with the 2427, I figured better safe than sorry). I had learned how to deal with the idiosyncratic behavior of the 2427 (wrt. humidity, follow-on layups, etc.), and I liked it. First issue: When I received the EZ10/84, the hardener was almost completely gelled (probably got cold during shipping). I heated it up in a pot of water on the stove (with the top unscrewed a bit for expansion) and melted it. As it turns out, I stayed in the shower a bit too long, and by the time I got back to the stove, the water was almost boiling, and the hardener had probably reached 180 deg. F or so. I let it cool down, and mixed a batch of epoxy to perform the "scratch test" and make sure that I hadn't ruined it. It cured and scratched OK, so I'm assuming that I've still got good hardener. So, _DON'T DO THAT!_ But if you do, you're probably OK. Second Issue: This damn stuff stinks to high heaven (whoops - religious reference :-) )!! My wife is pissed! The 2427 basically had no volatility whatsoever, so unless you stuck your nose in the hardener container, you couldn't smell it at all. This EZ10/84 will fill up the whole house (I'm working in my basement) with an awful stink in about an hour while I'm mixing epoxy for layups. I've put a small window fan in the basement window running 24/7 to exhaust the fumes to the outside - works pretty well. I may put my epoxy pump heater box inside a plastic garbage bag with a tie-wrap, and only open it when I need to access the pump for a layup - I can smell the fumes escaping from the box. Maybe I can just wrap up the hardener container and the tube. I did my first layup with the EZ10/84 on Sunday - the inside canopy layup - 2 BID and 2 UNI. It's MUCH easier to see (very yellow, vs. the 2427 almost clear) and much easier to tell when you've wet out the cloth. It seems to actually be marginally _less_ viscous than the 2427, and flows and wets out VERY well using a hair dryer. It sands about the same - no harder or easier. Hope this helps someone. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: Lee Devlin Subject: Re: COZY: Epoxy switch Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:59:23 MDT Marc wrote: > Second Issue: This damn stuff stinks to high heaven (whoops - religious > reference :-) )!! My wife is pissed! The 2427 basically had no I used this epoxy about 3 or 4 years ago to do one of those practice kits that comes with the Rutan book. I knew after I was finished that my marraige wouldn't survive building a plane with it. Even though the basement was sealed off from the upstairs, it didn't help. I thought my wife was going to kill me. It wasn't until I heard on rec.aviation.- homebuilt that an epoxy (2427) recently became available and it had no odor that I seriously considered building a Cozy. Now that my supply is coming to an end, I wonder what I'll do for a replacement. My understanding is that the original RAE epoxy (2426) is odor-free but has a different mix ratio (26:100). I think I can modify my pump by drilling another hole for the link and perhaps change over to the 2426. A lot of you may think that your epoxy only stinks for a little while. The reason for this is that your nose is a differential detector. After being immersed in a smell for a while, you can no longer distinquish it from any other ambient odors. This is actually a good thing in the grand scheme of things. If you ever become an astronaut, you'll really appreciate it. When they popped open the Apollo capsules after splashdown, the frogmen became ill with the odors emanating from them whereas the astronauts couldn't even tell the thing smelled bad. Of course, offensiveness of an odor is also a personal thing. I believe that it was on this forum that someone mentioned that he absolutely loved the smell of EZ10/84 so much that he wished there was a cologne made from it :-). Go figure... Lee Devlin | HP Greeley Division | Long EZ N36MX Piper Colt N4986Z | 700 71st Ave. | Cozy MK IV under const. 'Spirit of rec.aviation'| Greeley, CO 80634 | (Chapter 10) Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:38:53 -0500 From: Larry Jansch Subject: Re: COZY: Epoxy switch Jeff, What's the shelf life like on theEZ 'poxy? Before and after it's opened... -Larry -- Larry Jansch Cozy Mk.IV Plans #441/461 Chapter 09 Stop whining and build that plane! by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-7 #17060) with SMTP id <01IJF2P381AO9GIOY0@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Wed, 28 May 1997 21:59:08 EST Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:53:14 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: Epoxy switch Organization: AEROCAD INC. Marc J. Zeitlin wrote: > As I mentioned in a previous message, I switched epoxies recently - from > Hexcel 2427 to EZ10/84. > First issue: When I received the EZ10/84, the hardener was almost > completely gelled (probably got cold during shipping). I heated it up in > a pot of water the water was almost boiling, and the hardener had probably > reached 180 deg. F or so. The hardener will jell at or below 60 degrees. The resin and hardener can be stored at 70 to 150 degrees with no problems. (quoted from Phil C. from CPD). I keep our resin and hardener around 80 to 100 with a room heater in a large box around the 55 gal drums. > Second Issue: This damn stuff stinks to high heaven Yes, it smells like styrene. A little less then Bondo. It will let you know when it's active in the air. If you taste it in your mouth after hours of laying glass then your NOT moving enough air to keep you safe! Fans at 3 feet or less are better than higher because the fumes are heaver than air. We use a 4 foot fan that changes our air every 2 minutes. Works great in the summer time and bad in the winter. That's why we are moving to Florida!!! > I did my first layup with the EZ10/84 on Sunday - the inside canopy layup > - 2 BID and 2 UNI. It's MUCH easier to see (very yellow, vs. the 2427 > almost clear) and much easier to tell when you've wet out the cloth. It is much better to see air bubbles also. PS. I had about 20 gals of 2427 resin given to me from Ron Alexander from his composites workshops that had no hardener. From what I can tell the Resin is the same as the EZ10 as it cures at the same time and has the same heat range using the EZ84 hardener. I am using it on molds only but I would also not worry about using it on fairings if I did not want to trash the resin not having any hardener to cure it. Once cured in the can, the trash is no longer toxic to thow away. -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com Phone/ fax (call first): 910-961-2238 AeroCad: http://www.aerocad.com Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:55:35 -0700 From: Michael Antares Subject: COZY: Epoxy switch Just to let you know...2426 does NOT have any appreciable odor and it will definitely preserve marriages! Michael 6077 Old Redwood Highway Penngrove CA 94951 707.792.7971 Cozy#413 Finished through chap 14 except chap 13. Chaps 16 & 24 mostly finished. Now on chap 19 and 20. One wing/winglet finished, working on second. Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:51:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Mr. Radon" Subject: Re: COZY: Epoxy switch On Wed, 28 May 1997, Lee Devlin wrote: > I used this epoxy about 3 or 4 years ago to do one of those practice > kits that comes with the Rutan book. I knew after I was finished that > my marraige wouldn't survive building a plane with it. Even though the > basement was sealed off from the upstairs, it didn't help. I thought my > wife was going to kill me. It wasn't until I heard on rec.aviation.- > homebuilt that an epoxy (2427) recently became available and it had no > odor that I seriously considered building a Cozy. Now that my supply > is coming to an end, I wonder what I'll do for a replacement. My > understanding is that the original RAE epoxy (2426) is odor-free but has > a different mix ratio (26:100). I think I can modify my pump by > drilling another hole for the link and perhaps change over to the 2426. > I have created a spreadsheet to figure out the location of a hole for just about any mix ratio. I haven't been able to spend much time with the project so I spent it converting the epoxy pump. I can send a copy of it to Lee for evaluation > A lot of you may think that your epoxy only stinks for a little while. > The reason for this is that your nose is a differential detector. After > being immersed in a smell for a while, you can no longer distinquish it > from any other ambient odors. This is actually a good thing in the > grand scheme of things. If you ever become an astronaut, you'll really > appreciate it. When they popped open the Apollo capsules after > splashdown, the frogmen became ill with the odors emanating from them > whereas the astronauts couldn't even tell the thing smelled bad. Being a former Submariner I can attest to that fact. I didn't think I smelled all that bad after a three month patrol. After arriving home with the freshly washed cloths in my sea bag, the dog wouldn't even go near the bag. After two days at home I had to wear a respirator. The cloths still smell after 6 years in a box. However we can use this smell to an advantage, if our respirator cartridges are doing fine we shouldn't smell the stuff. My experiance has been that when I am done with a layup to go outside for some air, if I smelled a lagre change in epoxy oder I knew it was time to change them. Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:04:08 -0800 From: Eric Westland Subject: Re: COZY: Epoxy switch Lee Devlin wrote: My > understanding is that the original RAE epoxy (2426) is odor-free but has > a different mix ratio (26:100). I think I can modify my pump by > drilling another hole for the link and perhaps change over to the 2426. My pump was originally built for SP, so to use the RAE, that's what I did and it worked just fine. -eric by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-7 #17060) with SMTP id <01IJFMV5M44Y9GIDYP@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Thu, 29 May 1997 07:36:40 EST Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:38:17 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: Epoxy switch Organization: AEROCAD INC. Larry Jansch wrote: > What's the shelf life like on theEZ 'poxy? Before and after it's opened... RAF said to use it before 2 years opened or not. I have used 2426 resin that was 15 years stored in a basement. It showed the scrach test just fine so I used it also on more molds. -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:41:33 -0400 (EDT) From: RGCardinal@aol.com Subject: COZY: Epoxy Thought I'd add 2 cents on the subject. I'm using 2426 ( original RAE ) for two reasons. Lack of odor and well proven history. It is relativly odor free as my wife can attest to (very sensitive). Addionally, I made sure my work area was well ventilated. It's in what used to be a family room. I erected a simple wood wall with door to seperate it from the rest of the house, then installed an exhaust fan that not only draws in fresh air, slowly as it's not a monster fan, but also creates enough negative pressure that the fumes don't enter the rest of the house. Works rather well really. Seems to me that ventilation is the real key as well as a method of isolating the work area from the rest of the living quarters. Hope the thoughts help someone. Regards, Robert Kittler, #589 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 09:40:36 -0700 From: George Krosse Subject: COZY: rae epoxy Since A/S does not handle RAE any more, does any one have a source? George Krosse gtk4923@pacbell.net Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:06:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Fritzx2@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: rae epoxy Wicks carries the RAE epoxy. I just got some from them less about a month ago. Also note, the ratio on the epoxy can says 100:21 NOT 100:22 like the plans call out for. I called Nat quite a while before the last newsletter and he was unaware that the ratio stated on the epoxy can label was anything different than what was stated in the plans. He sugested that maybe the change from Hexcell to H. B. Fuller resulted in a different ratio but I told him that I had purchaced some epoxy from both manufacturers and the ratio was 100:21 for both. Nat said he was going to order some and let me know. But for the meantime, he said to use the 100:21 as stated on the can. I also posted a message about this this back then to the group but didn't get much response. John Fritz Fritzx2@aol.com John Fritz Fritzx2@aol.com Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 12:59:18 -0700 From: Michael Antares Subject: COZY: RAE epoxy I got mine from Wicks, I certainly hope they are still carrying it! 6077 Old Redwood Highway Penngrove CA 94951 707.792.7971 Cozy#413 Finished through chap 14 except chap 13. Chaps 16 & 24 mostly finished. Now on chap 19 and 20. One wing/winglet finished, working on second. Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 20:34:08 -0400 (EDT) From: DFinn7971@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: rae epoxy George, I believe Wicks still stocks RAE Epoxy. I bought a supply shortly after finding that Hexcel was getting out of the business. Luckily I was still able to get it from Wicks. Dcik Finn Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 09:15:24 EST From: "KEN SARGENT" Subject: COZY: UV Tests on bare laminate In response to a good suggestion, I am putting some unprotected E-glass Epoxy laminates I have laying around in the UV machine. The plan is to expose these laminates and test for change in hardness, elogation, and tensile strength. Epoxy was a Systems Three Phase II epoxy popular here for making character heads. It is a toughened epoxy system, but it is still the basic Bis A epoxy we all use. By experience, epoxy will discolor a lot, but I'm not sure how the physical properties will change. Material postcured. Look for the results Ken Sargent Mark IV # 555 to Chapter 8 ken_sargent@wda.disney.com Date: Thu, 19 Jun 97 16:38:44 EST From: "KEN SARGENT" Subject: COZY: Cozy - UV light exposure to laminate I pulled a sample strip out today that had an equivalent of 3 months full sun and moisture exposure. This was a plain laminate of conform E-glass and Systems Three Phase II Epoxy. Some observations: Hardness unchanged Exposed section yellowed dramically. From almost clear to golden yellow. No chalking Flexibility of laminate the same Elongation to failure same. Will do tensile strength and bend strength later. Very noticable smell from the UV exposed section. Smells like dog piss on a hot radiator. A quick conclusion that I make is the cured epoxy will discolor just like the hardener does. Most tech reps I talk to say that this change in the hardner is minor and that the epoxy will cure ok. More posts to follow. Ken Sargent #555 Chps 6-8 ken_sargent@wda.disney.com id <01IKAPGIH7VK96XE1X@pmdf.cinops.xerox.com> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:25:42 EDT id <01IKAP7LIR009854YP@pmdf.cinops.xerox.com> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:25:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:12:03 PDT From: "Hamilton,Thom" Subject: COZY: AeroPoxy Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:21:56 -0600 Hop-Count: 3 Yet another pre-builder question: Anyone out there building with AeroPoxy? I got some as the contents of my Rutan Practice Kit thing from Wick's. I've read some comments in the archive about it not wetting out very well, and maybe my standards are just off, but the stuff has worked GREAT for me so far. Once I got a decent balance set up to mix it I have had nothing but good results. Admittedly I haven't done a 22 layer BID layup with it or a fuselage bottom, but seems much better than what was written about it. Big Plus: No Odor!! A slight smell of roasted almonds as it cures. Just wanted to check before I go ordering gallons of it to start Chpt 4. Please respond with any experience you have, positive or negative. Thanks Thom Hamilton thom_hamilton@so.xerox.com Cozy MK-IV #620 From: SBLANKDDS@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 10:11:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Re: [canard-aviators] RAE Original Epoxy Ron Lee - Regarding Ez-Poxy Ratio: The label on the Ez-Poxy jug reports the ratio as 100:44 parts by weight. I have been using this resin with my pump set to 100:44 by volume and it seems to work well and pass the scratch test very well. Nice physical properties. Wets out well. Easy to see color.Source of resin: Jeff Russell, -- ----> AeroCad . Steve Blank Cozy Mark IV #36 sblankdds@aol.com web site -----> Cozy Ma rk IV Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:49:48 -0500 From: Darren DeLoach Subject: Re: COZY: Re: [canard-aviators] RAE Original Epoxy >At 10:11 AM 7/13/97 -0400, you wrote: >>Ron Lee - Regarding Ez-Poxy Ratio: >> >>The label on the Ez-Poxy jug reports the ratio as 100:44 parts by weight. >> >>I have been using this resin with my pump set to 100:44 by volume and it >>seems to work well and pass the scratch test very well. Nice physical >>properties. Wets out well. Easy to see color.Source of resin: Jeff Russell, -- >>----> AeroCad . >> >>Steve Blank Cozy Mark IV #36 sblankdds@aol.com > _NO NO NO_: It's 100:47 by _volume_ for EZPoxy, confirmed by CPD. Note that if you used 100:44 instead of 100:47, you might _NOT_ within the 5% allowable margin of error (depending on how the margin is supposed to be measured...) -- Darren DeLoach Sales & Software http://www.deloach.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:18:43 +0200 From: Jean-Jacques CLAUS Subject: COZY: Re:AeroPoxy Bill Jackson wrote : >Perhaps the key is mixing smaller batches >at more frequent intervals facilitated by the epoxy pump. It's the key that i found and choose. I also abandonned the fast epoxy system. >How do other builders work with some of the other systems using a single >epoxy ratio pump? I prefer to mix with the weight ratio of my system ( AXSON EPOLAM 2022 ). Sometimes resin and hardener are not at the same level in their pump tube, so the volume ratio is not good. In these cases the final result ( mechanicals caracteristics of the piece )is not correct at all and it's not possible to see it... JEAN-JACQUES CLAUS Aix-en-Provence - FRANCE COZY Classic #CC1056 Second wing finished - starting winglets fpjjc@hol.fr Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:37:12 -0700 From: Mahan Subject: Re: COZY: AeroPoxy Different epoxy systems have different properties, such as the tendancy to exotherm. Many, many Cozys and Long-EZ'a were built using just one epoxy system, Safe-T-Poxy/Epolite, which had a low tendency towards exotherm. EZ Poxy (EZ 10/84) is a near clone of it, and is what I'm using on my Defiant project. PTM&W epoxy has, I've read, a greater tendency towards exotherm. If you follow the plans and don't let epoxy sit too long in a cup, you won't have an exotherm problem, even with thick layups like the wing spars. If the epoxy's hot or seems to be getting thicker, don't use it! Abandon the cup and pump another batch. Most everyone building a plastic plane, me included, has tried to "save" a hot batch of epoxy. Don't! It will give you grief, spreads funny, won't flow or penetrate the fibers, etc., etc. Fred in Florida Long-EZ N86LE Bill Jackson wrote: > > Greetings, > > I picked up most of my materials for Chapters 4-8B from Wicks last Saturday. > I also picked up a one gallon kit of AeroPoxy to try out before I settle on a > system and start looking for an epoxy ratio pump. > > Last night I reviewed the first sections of the plans and got stuck on Nat's > (Rutan's?) discussion of epoxy and the need for a fast and slow epoxy system, > namely RAEF and RAES, for different construction phases. It seems the big issue > is exotherm and the slow mix allows larger batches with less exotherm problems. > > So, how would I do this with AeroPoxy, or EZ-10/84? Maybe it isn't even a > concern till I get into big layups. Perhaps the key is mixing smaller batches > at more frequent intervals facilitated by the epoxy pump. > > How do other builders work with some of the other systems using a single > epoxy ratio pump? > > Pre-builder ramblings. > > Bill Jackson > jackson@sierra.cecer.army.mil Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 09:32:06 -0700 From: Jim Cullen Subject: COZY: Epoxy du Jour Carolyn and I are getting ready to start construction of our strakes. Having progressed from Saf-T-Poxy II to that 2427A stuff that nearly everybody (except us) disliked, to RAF Slow, we're wondering what epoxy everyone is now using for the strakes. I seem to recall that RAES is not sufficiently fuel resistant for the strakes(?). If this is the case, what are people happy with? Can I use my Sticky-Stuff Dispenser with whatever you recommend? (I have the pump heads for the RAE and SP II systems. P.S.: To all of you who kindly wrote me a dissertation on the value of resetting my computer's clock, I think I've got it right this time! Best wishes, Jim From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Epoxy du Jour (fwd) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 97 12:45:51 EDT Jim Cullen wrote: >...... we're wondering what epoxy >everyone is now using for the strakes. I'll be using EZ10/84 (SP II equivalent). Well proven and stinks to high heaven. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 21:26:12 -0400 From: David Domeier Subject: Re: COZY: Epoxy du Jour Jim, re "I seem to recall that RAES is not sufficiently fuel resistant for the strakes(?)." For what it's worth, I built my Long EZ with RAES in 1981-83 with RAES and it held fuel just fine for the 6 years I flew the airplane. I recently bought a gallon of RAES to finish the baffles in the the lower cowling. I like it very much, once again. If I had to do it over, I would build the entire airplane with RAES. As it is, I've used Safety Poxy II and 2427 and am hoping for the best. dd Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 08:17:08 +0200 From: Rego Burger Subject: COZY: Epoxy du Jour -Reply >From what I understand auto-fuels are the worst with epoxies. So when this debacle came up I "tested" some samples of 2427 in auto-fuel. Brand name (Caltex cx-3 ) the samples are off cuts from actual layups I've made. 1.) There is no "goo" or sticky residue. 2.) The appearance is the "same" as when place in the fuel container. 3.) All I noticed was a distinct "hardening" or brittleness of the layup after being submerged in the fuel. Above test over a period of 11 months now and still in the fuel. Have not tested it in avgas ..... Too scared to make it "public" on the net for fear of a long drawn out debate on the subject until the lab report from that accident is out ! :-) Rego Burger CZ4#139 RSA From: SWrightFLY@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:14:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel Tank Leaks In a message dated 9/5/97 12:26:36 AM, you wrote: << Has anyone ever checked their tanks at "annual time" (plastic/canard a/c) to see if minute leaks have developed......maybe not just poor fuel consumption....? Maybe this >> To answer this and to give my openion as to what I feel is a "proven" epoxy to use for the tanks------- My Varieze tanks are 17 years old and the annual scratch test shows they are as good today as when they were built. I used auto fuel about half the time and Av-gas the rest. Tanks are made using Safty-Poxy... Never had a leak. Steve Wright Wright Aircraft Works LLC Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:14:22 +0200 From: Rego Burger Subject: COZY: Epozy Changes between left and right wings! I was concerned about an epoxy system change from one wing to the next. What I feared from comparative test results Chris and myself did some time back that the flexural strength variations would possibly cause the potential for an uneven oscillation in turbulence. Having raised the subject with NAT Puffer I wish to confirm that my fears were over cautious. NAT feels that the entire composite structure "if built according to plans" is fine. The variation in epoxy ALONE will not be a problem. Rego Burger CZ4#139 RSA From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:15:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Epozy Changes between left and right wings! On 09/16/97 14:14:22 you wrote: > >I was concerned about an epoxy system change from one wing to the next. >What I feared from comparative test results Chris and myself did some >time back that the flexural strength variations would possibly cause the >potential for an uneven oscillation in turbulence. > >Having raised the subject with NAT Puffer I wish to confirm that my >fears were over cautious. >NAT feels that the entire composite structure "if built according to >plans" is fine. The variation in epoxy ALONE will not be a problem. > >Rego Burger >CZ4#139 >RSA > > The main stiffness ingredient of the airframe is the fiberglass fibers, the epoxy is mainly a bonding agent (like gripping a tug of war rope)between adjacent fibers and surfaces, and only contributes a small percentage (by deforming like a block of jello being pushed parallel to the plate it sets on). This is a good reason to minimize the epoxy quantity by good lay-up practice. From: "Ian Martin" Subject: COZY: EPOXY - Anyone have any experience with Clearstream 9000 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:39:03 -0700 Hello All, Has anyone looked at or evaluated the Clearstream 9000 series epoxy. It was recommended by Stan Montgomery (Glassic Composites video ). During my pre-build stage I set up a press for testing the realized strength of composite layups per Marshall's "Composite Basics" (Good book). My testing for my enviroment and skill set showed that Clearstream was superior to Safe-t-poxy and so far it working well for me (still in chapter 4). I would appreciate any feedback on this subject. F.Y.I. The filler that Clearstream sell and Montgomery recommends I found to have very poor peel strength in my garage test, though it seems ok for finishing. Thanks for any feedback. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- J. Ian Martin Phone: (619) 874 - 7000 x184 email: imartin@gstone.com From: lschuler@cellular.uscc.com Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 17:14:37 -0600 Subject: COZY: Epoxy Just converted from RAE to EZ-10/84. Wet out is nice and takes longer to kick (unless I mixed it wrong). The amber color provides a nice contrast for finding air bubbles (this is comparable to the blue RAE). Can't say anything else at the moment; first layup last night. Marc, Your wife is a saint for putting up with it in the house! Tell her one of the Kamp Kozy nuts said so... The stuff stinks to high heaven. Finding my most favorite part of building is cleaning out the sticky stuff dispenser.....NOT! Larry Schuler #500 Calaco Bird (2427, RAE and now EZ-10) {thank lschuler@ goodness for paint and filler}. cellular.uscc.com Ch 9 done, skipped ahead to seats (gotta make noise). Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:33:22 -0700 From: C Van Hoof Organization: Architect Subject: COZY: Epoxy and related issues HI ALL, So we (in South Africa) had a public holiday and it was time to do the landing Gear Bow - torsional stiffening layups - the first four - you know the ones in chapter 09. What an enjoyable experience - all on the nails - UNI cut - Epoxy mixed - first serious layup after our winter ( after the landing gear reinforcing bits). So at this point in time we (Jean & me) are so good at doing this sort of layup - from 3pm till 5pm - 2 hrs - all done...peel plied - the works - finished...sorry it went so well... Temps OK, Humidity OK, Night temp OK, all fine. Next morning, as usual, first thing (well almost) into the workshop and get rid of the peelply while its still easy to pull off. Boy this came off easy - a bit easier than normal (you know - experience) and at the same time got some coming away from the end of the bow...so what... In the office (above the workshop - real fortunate) the delamination gets into my skull....and starts gnawing....so leave the work - it can wait - go see what's up with this delam stuff. Idle fingers poking around, look, its coming off all together. Each and every layer is loose, need some force but not too excessive to strip the whole works....One hrs later it just need ssanding again and we can do the same layups, but for the practice.... The thinking: Checked the age of the Epoxy - Fine. Checked the mix ratio of the pump - fine. Checked the cure - not as fine as should be. Moral/lesson: Don't go poking at things that need a decent cure - and give it a chance. The temps were fine but got to the minima in the book - during the early morning hours - this slows the total cure time considerably. Check your pump/clean after a long period of idleness. Next time i'll put the heater onto the item in a tent to get a better cure - to keep it from getting near the minima's. Hope those behind me in construction have learnt something here....Myself am a slow learner - this is the second time i pull a stint like this... tried it on the firewall lanimate earlier in the scheme - but about the same time of the year. Happy building all. Chris #219 Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:24:02 -0400 From: William Hixson Subject: COZY: Dow 330 Expoxy This may be an already adressed issue but I noticed the Dow 330 expoxy system in my Wicks catalog and the lower price. I don't recall this system as ever being discussed either pro or con. Any thoughts? I'd like to save money but last time I tried that I bought lots of 2427 and had the wits scared out of me with all the talk of problems. Bill Hixson Cozy #466 Wash. D.C. Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 08:23:22 +0200 From: Rego Burger Subject: RE: COZY: Pin Hole Hell -Reply >>>>>West Sytems:. My limited experience indicates one can get a lot more done using West Systems 105 resin and 206 (slow) hardener than Aeropoxy. It sets faster, can be sanded sooner and is easier to sand. I am not sure about using it for structure, but have no problems using if for cosmetic purposes. I have not tried the 205 hardener. John Epplin Mk4 #467 Doing some surface filling occasionally, still have turtleback and canopy to build.<<<<<< Its a genreal purpose and finishing resin, John's concern about using it for STRUCTURE is correct. ALWAYS use a LAMINATING RESIN for structures. It bonds better with the pre-agents in cloths and wetts out better. Rego Burger CZ4#139 RSA Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:16:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Tom Brusehaver Subject: Re: COZY: Pin Hole Hell -Reply >> West Sytems:. My limited experience indicates one can get a >> lot >> more done using West Systems 105 resin and 206 (slow) hardener >> than Aeropoxy. It sets faster, can be sanded sooner and is easier >> to sand. I am not sure about using it for structure, but have no >> problems using if for cosmetic purposes. I have not tried the 205 >> hardener. R> Its a genreal purpose and finishing resin, John's concern about R> using it for STRUCTURE is correct. ALWAYS use a LAMINATING RESIN R> for structures. It bonds better with the pre-agents in cloths and R> wetts out better. I thought West 105/209 was approved for the Cozy? The West 208 and 209 hardners are for finishing, the 205 and 206 may be for laminating. Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:22:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Mr. Radon" Subject: COZY: Epoxy/fuel Started the project with the 2427 system am currently using the RAE Slow epoxy. I didn't realize (actually forgot) that this stuff is not so good for aplications were it will be exposed to fuel. I finished my sides with the RAE and this will be exposed to fuel. Am currently laying up the spar caps on the spar. What should I use for the forward face of the spar, and what should I cover the sides of the body/fuel gages with? I like cleaning that epoxy pump about as much as I liked being in the Navy, have a scale as a backup. Love the RAE, any reason not to continue using it? Ain't hind-sight 20/20. ROY - Chapter 14 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 23:08:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Mr. Radon" Subject: Re: COZY: Epoxy/fuel Talked with Nat today. He has no concerns on using RAE for the fuel tanks. He also mentioned he wouldn't mind finding something to disolve epoxy himself, seeing how hes messed up his share of pants. I guess I'll stick a few samples in a jar as others have done. (Thanks Eric) > Started the project with the 2427 system am currently using the RAE Slow > epoxy. I didn't realize (actually forgot) that this stuff is not so good > for aplications were it will be exposed to fuel. I finished my sides > with the RAE and this will be exposed to fuel. Am currently laying up > the spar caps on the spar. What should I use for the forward face of the > spar, and what should I cover the sides of the body/fuel gages with? I > like cleaning that epoxy pump about as much as I liked being in the Navy, > have a scale as a backup. Love the RAE, any reason not to continue using > it? > Ain't hind-sight 20/20. > > > ROY - Chapter 14 > > by m12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DsU24123; Mon, 06 Oct 1997 03:03:02 EDT Subject: Re: COZY: Epoxy/fuel From: cozybldr@juno.com (Paul T Stowitts) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 03:03:02 EDT On Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:22:40 -0700 (PDT) "Mr. Radon" writes: > Started the project with the 2427 system am currently using the RAE >Slow >epoxy. I didn't realize (actually forgot) that this stuff is not so >good >for aplications were it will be exposed to fuel. I finished my sides >with the RAE and this will be exposed to fuel. Am currently laying up >the spar caps on the spar. What should I use for the forward face of >the >spar, and what should I cover the sides of the body/fuel gages with? >I >like cleaning that epoxy pump about as much as I liked being in the >Navy, >have a scale as a backup. Love the RAE, any reason not to continue >using >it? > Ain't hind-sight 20/20. > > >ROY - Chapter 14 > > I also am using RAE Slow and like it. Very little of the spar and side are enclosed in the fuel tank so if you're not comfortable with RAE in the tanks, just sand the sides and spar well (you have to do it anyway unless you peel plied everything) and recoat with the new epoxy. The insides of the tanks have to be well coated with epoxy to insure no leakage. Paul Stowitts Cozy Mark IV #200 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:09:06 -0700 (PDT) From: rfisher@spacetech.com Subject: Re: COZY: Getting started On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, "Boykin Ed (C)" wrote: >If I do any composite parts I will have do them on my balcony so I will >probably wait to do any of those until spring. It doesn't get too cold >here in Atlanta but I would rather not have to worry about that and I >need time to figure out a way to minimize the possibility of dust and >debris contaminating my layups without pissing off the landlord. Ed, Epoxy layups need to cure at least 12 to 18 hours before you move them. Given that Atlanta is pretty humid year 'round, I would be concerned with dew forming on layups that you leave on your balcony overnight. Moisture/humidity and resin don't usually get along together. If you're concerned about odor, I can vouch for PTM&W's Aeropoxy as having virtually NO odor! There is a little while you are mixing and wetting out, but it is not at all offensive. Once it begins to set up, no odor. This was quite a pleasant surprise for me, as I am starting in my basement and was worried about sleeping in the stuff as it wafted upstairs. There has been MUCH discussion about various epoxies, and what I have found is that most people swear by what they originally chose to use (with the possible exception of 2427.) I have heard though, that some of the epoxies have a very strong and objectionable odor, making in necessary to have extremely good ventilation. I have found it very easy to work with. I think Nat mentions somewhere that he felt that it exotherms a little too quick for him, but they have re-formulated it since then and I have not run into that problem so far. Hope this helps. See ya, Russ Fisher rfisher@spacetech.com From: RGCardinal@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: COZY: Epoxy systems You may have heard that RAE system is no longer being made. According to Wicks this is true.. They do indicate that they are working on a replacement system, in conjunction the designers including Nat and Burt. Don't expect new sys to be available for 6 to 8 weeks minimum. that's the latest I have and I thought I'd pass it along Rob Kittler sn 589 From: Fritzx2@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Epoxy systems Rob Kittler wrote: >You may have heard that RAE system is no longer being made. Does anybody know why? Maybe most everyone is using the EZ poxy causing the manufacturer to not make enough money to make it worth their while. Back before Wicks started carrying it again, I think I remember reading that RAE was still being made by the original manufacturer but Wicks wasn't selling it because of the minimum quantity they had to buy. John Fritz fritzx2@aol.com From: RGCardinal@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Epoxy systems wicks says that the maker was sold to a new company. leads one to believe it's an economic decision Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 11:09:21 EST From: "KEN SARGENT" Subject: Re[2]: COZY: Epoxy systems I have been in contact (work related) with an outfit in Daytona called American Industrial Plastics A.I.P. that has sold Hexcel Epoxy for a long time. They are setting up to formulate their own epoxy with the help of Guy Stoks. Guy worked with Burt when he was with Hexcel to formulate the original RAE, and Safe-T epoxies. I am putting a feeler out to A.I.P if they would distribute our group. In my discussions with them, they felt the supply of the RAE would disappear with the major mergers that are taking place today. Seems that has happened. Hexcel did not like the law suits with the RAE, spite no real claims. I think Hexcel sold the RAE to another company a while back, and that the new company may have sold the formulation once again. It would not be implausible that this is A.I.P. Look for more postings if they have indeed agreed to formulate the old RAE, and are willing to distribute in kits. They have mentioned in the past they would probably contact Wicks and Aircraft Spruce. By the way, those using PTM&W, they have a special number for us homebuilders. If you buy any using the commercial grade part #'ing your cost is less, and they have told me it is the same exact material. The premium is for the application litigation. Ken Sargent Cozy Plans #555 ken_sargent@wda.disney.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: COZY: Epoxy systems Author: RGCardinal@aol.com at DISNEY-WDW-INTERNET Date: 10/19/97 5:26 PM wicks says that the maker was sold to a new company. leads one to believe it's an economic decision Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:07:29 -0500 From: Chris Anderson Subject: COZY: Composite Safety I'm looking for a good reference on safety precautions for layup, suggestions? the MSDS's on the web page are invaluable, but I know some of you folks are doing layup in basements and other semi-enclosed areas and I'd like to figure out how I can do this safely. ============================================================== ...because our country will inevitably proceed down the path marked by the ideas of Robert Heinlein. That's legacy enough for any man. He showed us where the future is. It's our job to go and make it. --Tom Clancy, of Robert A. Heinlein Chris Anderson andersoc@wi.net KA9UQO From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Composite Safety (fwd) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 9:33:34 EDT Chris Anderson writes: >I'm looking for a good reference on safety precautions for layup, suggestions? >the MSDS's on the web page are invaluable, but I know some of you folks are >doing layup in basements and other semi-enclosed areas and I'd like to >figure out how I can do this safely. AHA!! Another volunteer for the COZY FAQ's! Thanks, Chris! The archives are chock full of information on epoxy safety, including information on masks, gloves, clothing, air supplies, ventilation, heating, etc. Once you've combed the archives (for 1995, 1996, and 1997) you'll be all set to distill the wisdom of the masses regarding this subject into a pithy paragraph for bil kleb to include in the next revision of the COZY FAQ. I'll help out here - here's the message to send to: majordomo@hpwarhw.an.hp.com index cozy_builders get topics95/epoxy_info.txt get topics95/safety.txt get topics95/ventilators.txt get topics95/workshop.txt get topics95/layups.txt get topics96/cleanup.txt get topics96/epoxy_info.txt get topics96/tools.txt get topics96/workshop.txt get topics/tools.txt get topics/epoxy_info.txt get topics/epox_protect.txt get topics/workshop.txt get topics/safety.txt end Happy skimming and reading. There may be other topics of interest that would help out here - this is what I could pick out from the index. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: SBLANKDDS@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Composite Safety Chris Anderson wrote about I work in my garage, often at night with the door closed. I installed a window fan in the side door window, blowing the odor out throught the window. This seems to help quite a bit. My neighbor (fortunately a pilot) can tell when I am working! Make sure you have a source of fresh air entering or the fan is of liitle use. This can be a window, or create some duct work from the living space to the work shop. (Not the other way around or the house will stink). Steve Blank Cozy Mark IV #36 web site ---> Cozy Mark IV Subject: Re: COZY: Epoxy systems Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:26:33 -0400 (EDT) From: "Randy Smith" Along the same lines, I had the pleasure of speaking last week with Marilyn Klein, President, Fibre Glast Developments Corporation. I had just received their newsletter and called about an article touting their new epoxy resin called "System 2000." She indicated that it is stronger than any other room-temp cure structural epoxy system. Some other things she said are that it contains no MDA or styrene. It wets out faster, cures harder/stronger, is humidity resistant (whatever that means) requires no post-cure and has a Tg of 196 F. It is available now and costs $59.95 for a gallon of resin and $19.95 for a quart of hardner. It has 3 hardner choices with pot life of 20 minutes, 60 minutes or 120 minutes. When I told her that I was considering using it to build an airplane with it, she offered to send me a quart sample for testing. I respectfully declined as I am just starting out and wouldn't know what I was looking at. I suggested that she contact Nat and send it to him for evaluation. She said she would. They have a table in the newsletter that compares system 2000 with other epoxies such as RAE, Epolite 2427, Saf-T-Poxy, EZ-Poxy and Pro-set. It compares favorably with the others and has higer numbers for Tensile Modulus, Flexural Strength and Flexural Modulus. (which is good, I guess; being a EE these mean nothing) If there is interest, perhaps I can input the data into a spreadsheet and send it to Marc to put on the web. Too much data to type in with ascii. Still working on the fiber glass information I promised. -Randy Smith --* --- -* **-* *-** -*-- -* Table finished, epoxy scale next |Cozy MkIV| NCR General Purpose Computing Randy.Smith@ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |---( )---| Global Support Center Voice 803-939-7648, V+ 633-7648 ___o/o\o___ West Columbia, SC 29170 "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." -JC > I have been in contact (work related) with an outfit in Daytona called > American Industrial Plastics A.I.P. that has sold Hexcel Epoxy for a > long time. They are setting up to formulate their own epoxy with the > help of Guy Stoks. Guy worked with Burt when he was with Hexcel to < snip > > Ken Sargent > Cozy Plans #555 > ken_sargent@wda.disney.com Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:11:12 -0800 (PST) From: rfisher@spacetech.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: COZY: Epoxy systems On Mon, 20 Oct 97, "KEN SARGENT" wrote: > By the way, those using PTM&W, they have a special number for us > homebuilders. If you buy any using the commercial grade part #'ing > your cost is less, and they have told me it is the same exact > material. The premium is for the application litigation. Ken, I use Aeropoxy and was told that they wouldn't sell direct to the public. What are these numbers and is there a minimum order? See ya, Russ Fisher rfisher@spacetech.com Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 15:18:25 -0500 From: Ian Douglas Organization: WTC Subject: Re: COZY: epoxy information >I gather these are new epoxys..are you guys still using Saf-T-poxy? >which epoxy is better the RAE or the PTM&W ? It is getting harder to find the RAE stuff. I called Nat and he said no problem with the PTM&W (I just bought a 5 gallon kit). -- Ian D.S. Douglas MK0069 Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 13:58:19 EST From: "Nick J Ugolini" Subject: COZY: Epoxy I am planning to order some EZ-Poxy. I can buy it with either EZ-83 or EZ84 hardner... Question, which one to buy? Factors EZ83 EZ84 Viscocity (seems the most significant) 1300 800 cps Tack free 4 8 hrs Cure time 1 3 days Does anyone have any recommendations? Thanks From: lschuler@cellular.uscc.com Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 14:19:08 -0600 Subject: COZY: Epoxy Nick Ugolini wrote: I am planning to order some EZ-Poxy. I can buy it with either EZ-83 or EZ84 hardner... Question, which one to buy? >snip The 83 has a much shorter pot life than 84 and 87 is longest. The cure time for all (83,84 or 87) is all the same at 3 Days. I use 84 and found it's workability and pot life roughly the same as 2427 and RAE with wet-out a little better than RAE. I have a data sheet at home so can't quote the numbers, but I think the performance of all are very similar, especially when post-cured with the 87 being best (but 2-hour pot life). The only other note might be that the 83, with it's short pot life, will be more likely to exotherm than the others. I've had no problems with the 84 and it's tendancy to exotherm is much less than RAE. Get a data sheet from your supplier. Hope this helps. Larry Schuler lschuler@cellular.uscc.com