Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:37:37 -0500
From: Mahan <mahan@digital.net>
Subject: COZY: NO FLY OVER POPULATED AREAS???

A friend not on the list asked me to post this question regarding
overflying populated areas in our homebuilts.  Anyone in the know on
such a subject?

Fred in Florida
Long-EZ N86LE
Defiant project

> I forgot to tell you.
>  While at Ellington on a good flying day (really rare around here), I
> told a fellow spam can driver that I was going to fly around Houston
> under the Class B (there is a VFR corridor that goes over downtown
> Houston over I10) just for the sake of flying in a circle and go
> somewhere for once rather than back and forth to League City ( New
> Jersey of the West Standard Tour #1)
>  He quickly pointed out that it was illegal for me to do so because
> Experimentals cannot fly over populated airspace and that's why he gave
> up on building or buying one.
> He and his wife are doctors and own a twin, he wants to have a Glassair
> but he's concerned about not being able to go anywhere.
> When I mentioned to him that  that was news to me. He said that at first
> he did not believe that such rule could be possible so he consulted with
> the local FAA rep which said that experimentals cannot fly over
> populated areas. This fellow seems to have a good head on his shoulders
> and does not seem to be the type that just tells you something to make
> himself feel important or superior, as a matter of fact he seems to be
> truly interested in homebuilts, not you typical "I'mgonnabildme".
> This "potential" interpretation of the law is bugging the heck out of
> me. I don't have an FAR's book with me.
> Is the FAA rep right? I certainly hope not otherwise you and I'll be
> serving life without parole for thousands of repeat offenses along with
> lots of other pilots.

 
 
From: Marc J. Zeitlin <marcz@hpwarhw.an.hp.com>
Subject: COZY: NO FLY OVER POPULATED AREAS??? (fwd)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 17:35:13 EST

Fred Mahan wrote;

>A friend not on the list asked me to post this question regarding
>overflying populated areas in our homebuilts.  Anyone in the know on
>such a subject?

>From an exhaustive search through the FAR's at:

	http://www.landings.com/aviation.html

I found only this:

  Sec. 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating
            limitations.

  (c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special
  operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an
  experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a
  congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating
  limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to
  be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in
  accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in
  the interest of safety in air commerce.


So, it's prohibited in general, but allowed by the operating limitiations
granted for each individual aircraft.  I've never heard on anyone being
called on the carpet for operating in a populated area, even if they
crash while doing it.

The problem for the FAA, of course, is that there is _NO_ definition of
"densely populated area" or "congested airway" anywhere in the FAR's (as
far as I could find, and other's have said the same thing), so they'd be
hard pressed to explain exactly what you were doing wrong anyway.  Tell
your friend to build his Glasair without worrying :-).


Interestingly enough, section 137 (agricultural operations) talks about
"congested areas" as well, without any definition of it, and section
103.15 Operations over congested areas <for ultralights> says:

  No person may operate an ultralight vehicle over any congested area of
  a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons
  
I guess Oshkosh and S&F are completely illegal :-).

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                              Email: marcz@an.hp.com

 
 
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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:32:34 -0800
From: hrogers@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Howard Rogers)
Subject: Re: COZY: NO FLY OVER POPULATED AREAS??? (fwd)

I don't have my copy of the FARs with me, but I have been in on a couple of
similar discussions in the past.  I was told that there is, in the FAR
wording somewhere, a statement to the effect that the aforementioned
restriction on flying over "congested areas" did not apply to the flight
necessary to get to and from the airport.  I fly in and out of Palo Alto,
which has numerous homebuilts based there, and I am here to tell you that
there is no way out of Palo Alto without overflying "congested areas" (not
to mention the alphabet soup of airspace).  It seems to me that all that is
required is for you to be "on the way to or from" an airport, which pretty
much covers any situation, if you are careful.  Perhaps, instead of
requesting the "scenic tour", you could request a series of vectors toward
specific destinations (with airports, of course), and  accomplish the same
thing.  I believe this is what's known as a grey area.

--Howard Rogers, 415-926-4052
hrogers@slac.stanford.edu



 
 
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 23:13:49 -0500
From: INFINITY Aerospace <INFINITY_Aerospace@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re:  COZY: NO FLY OVER POPULATED AREAS???

Hi Fred, Howard, Marc and All,

        Sorry for re-posting everyone's post in one post, but this is kinda
important.


        >A friend not on the list asked me to post this question regarding
overflying populated areas in our homebuilts.  Anyone in the know on such a
subject?<


        >Fred's friend wrote:<
        >I forgot to tell you.  While at Ellington on a good flying day
(really rare around here), I told a fellow spam can driver that I was going
to fly around Houston under the Class B (there is a VFR corridor that goes
over downtown Houston over I10) just for the sake of flying in a circle and
go somewhere for once rather than back and forth to League City (New Jersey
of the West Standard Tour #1)  He quickly pointed out that it was illegal
for me to do so because Experimentals cannot fly over populated airspace
and that's why he gave up on building or buying one.  He and his wife are
doctors and own a twin, he wants to have a Glasair but he's concerned about
not being able to go anywhere.  When I mentioned to him that  that was news
to me. He said that at first he did not believe that such rule could be
possible so he consulted with the local FAA rep which said that
Experimentals cannot fly over populated areas. This fellow seems to have a
good head on his shoulders and does not seem to be the type that just tells
you something to make himself feel important or superior, as a matter of
fact he seems to be truly interested in homebuilts, not you typical
"I'mgonnabildme".  This "potential" interpretation of the law is bugging
the heck out of me. I don't have an FAR's book with me.  Is the FAA rep
right? I certainly hope not otherwise you and I'll be serving life without
parole for thousands of repeat offenses along with lots of other pilots.<


        >Howard Rogers wrote:<
        >I don't have my copy of the FARs with me, but I have been in on a
couple of similar discussions in the past.  I was told that there is, in
the FAR wording somewhere, a statement to the effect that the
aforementioned restriction on flying over "congested areas" did not apply
to the flight necessary to get to and from the airport.  I fly in and out
of Palo Alto,
which has numerous homebuilts based there, and I am here to tell you that
there is no way out of Palo Alto without overflying "congested areas" (not
to mention the alphabet soup of airspace).  It seems to me that all that is
required is for you to be "on the way to or from" an airport, which pretty
much covers any situation, if you are careful.  Perhaps, instead of
Requesting the "scenic tour", you could request a series of vectors toward
specific destinations (with airports, of course), and  accomplish the same
thing.  I believe this is what's known as a grey area.<


        >Marc Zeitlin wrote:<
        >I found only this:

        Sec. 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating
limitations.

        (c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special
operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an
experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested
airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for
particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a
densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms
and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in
air commerce.

        So, it's prohibited in general, but allowed by the operating
limitations granted for each individual aircraft.  I've never heard on
anyone being called on the carpet for operating in a populated area, even
if they crash while doing it.

        The problem for the FAA, of course, is that there is _NO_
definition of "densely populated area" or "congested airway" anywhere in
the FAR's (as far as I could find, and other's have said the same thing),
so they'd be hard pressed to explain exactly what you were doing wrong
anyway.  Tell your friend to build his Glasair without worrying :-).

        Interestingly enough, section 137 (agricultural operations) talks
about "congested areas" as well, without any definition of it, and section
103.15 Operations over congested areas <for ultralights> says:

        No person may operate an ultralight vehicle over any congested area
of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons.

        I guess Oshkosh and S&F are completely illegal :-).<


        Howard and Marc have pretty much covered it.  I'll try to address
the above from what the FAA said in 1988.
        First a little history to refresh - as I mentioned in a previous
post (10/16/96), I wrote ". . . in 1988, I re-wrote the Phase I & Phase II
Operating Limitations for homebuilt aircraft, . . .  I tried to get rid of
a vague statement in the re-write of the Phase II Operating Limitations
that states 'homebuilts can't fly over populated areas except for take-offs
and landings' (what a huge loop hole), but no cigar."

        When I re-wrote the Phase I & Phase II Operating Limitations for
homebuilt aircraft at the FAA's request of our EAA Chapter and the Chapter
President asking me to do it, Phase II still had the statement above, which
stated 'homebuilts can't fly over populated areas except for take-offs' and
landings', of which I summarily removed.
        I re-wrote it that Sport Aircraft are not limited to where they can
go in Phase II.  I pointed out that most all Sport Aircraft are well
proven, and that this vague statement could be a legal concern (as Fred's
friend has pointed out).  After a builder fly's off his hours in Phase I,
there should be no restrictions or vague statements in his Phase II
Operating Limitations open to some snake lawyers twisted interpretation.
        The FAA said they would not change it, even though they acknowledge
the concern - they wanted to keep that statement as a vague loop hole (I
could not get an answer as to why)!  When I asked the EAA why they would
not support my change, they basically would not buck the FAA - I was
surprised, and I never could find out why.
        Sooo, the FAA rep in Fred's friends post is correct (partially),
Sport Aircraft can't fly over populated areas.  But the loop hole in the
FAR's, and specifically re-stated in our Phase II Operating Limitations,
does allow us to fly wherever and whenever we want over populated areas for
we are always "flying to and from an airport for take-offs' and landings". 
This covers us, the FAA said, but I sure think it stinks.


        I hope my post was clear.  HTH.


Infinity's Forever,                             EAA Member
                                        EAA Technical Counselor
        JD                              EAA Flight Advisor
                                        AOPA Member
                                        Test Pilot
James D. Newman, President
LCDR         F-14            USNR

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