Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 19:03:15 -0500 From: CCady@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Elevator Hinges and Canard Tip What are most people doing with their Roncz elevator hinge pins at the canard tips? I notice that many of the Roncz canards I see at Sun-N-Fun appear to have the hinge pin sealed in and apparently not removable. I didn't like the method shown in the plans because you have to taper the end of the hinge pin. I cut the pin short and thread the end with 10-32 threads. I then have a short tapped rod that I put in a drill to install and remove the hinge pin thru the hole in the bottom of the canard tip. Perhaps this is what is being done elsewhere and the access hole is just microed over and finished? Cliff From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Re: COZY: Elevator Hinges and Canard Tip (fwd) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 97 10:56:11 EST Cliff Cady wrote: >I didn't like the method shown in the plans because you have to taper the end >of the hinge pin. I cut the pin short and thread the end with 10-32 threads. > I then have a short tapped rod that I put in a drill to install and remove >the hinge pin thru the hole in the bottom of the canard tip. Perhaps this is >what is being done elsewhere and the access hole is just microed over and >finished? I followed the plans - I tapered the ends of the pins and drilled a very small hole through the tip so that I can insert something sharp into them to pull the pins out. Works fine, only took about 5 minutes with a file to get the pins to the right shape, and blends in nicely with the rest of the tip. Your idea sounds fine, although if you micro over the pin, you'll ruin your paint job every time you need to take the elevators off, no? -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:51:35 -0500 (EST) From: gperry@usit.com Subject: COZY: Chapter 11 Question I'm currently working on the outboard elevator counterweights for a Cozy Mark IV (Chapter 11). According to the plans, I wrap two plies of UNI around the weight, foam spacer and onto the elevator. The plans then say to "paint" the sides of the weight with epoxy. This may be a dumb question, but what about the sides of the foam spacer? It's hard to imagine leaving it bare or just painting it but there's no mention of additional layups to cover it up. Any thoughts would be appreciated... Gregg Perry by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-5 #17060) with SMTP id <01IFHL9B8NK296CXH6@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:18:21 EST Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:18:07 -0500 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: Chapter 11 Question Organization: AEROCAD INC. Gregg Perry wrote: > I'm currently working on the outboard elevator counterweights for a Cozy > Mark IV (Chapter 11). According to the plans, I wrap two plies of UNI > around the weight, foam spacer and onto the elevator. The plans then say to > "paint" the sides of the weight with epoxy. This may be a dumb question, > but what about the sides of the foam spacer? It's hard to imagine leaving > it bare or just painting it but there's no mention of additional layups to > cover it up. Any thoughts would be appreciated... I just smeared wet micro on both sides of the foam and lead weight. Sanded smooth and painted. The one thing that the plans should have had you do is add a jogle on the elevater before skinning for the UNI that raps the weight. When it comes to finishing the elevators, there will be no glass bump to try to hide. -- AeroCad Inc. Jeff Russell 1445 Crater Lane Yadkinville, NC. 27055 phone/ call first for fax 910-961-2238 NEW E-mail: JRAEROCAD@yadtel.net NEW web site: http://www.binary.net/aerocad NEW AeroCanard pictures http://ab00.larc.nasa.gov/~kleb/ac/ Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 10:59:03 -0500 From: Jim Hocut Subject: COZY: Canard Tips OK, lots of time on my hands at work today, so the mind is running wild. What's the difference (aerodynamically speaking) between an up-turned and down-turned canard tip? I've seen both, and assume that probably there's no significant difference except looks. Jim Hocut jhocut@mindspring.com From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Canard Tips (fwd) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 97 11:29:53 EST Jim Hocut asks; >What's the difference (aerodynamically speaking) between an >up-turned and down-turned canard tip? I've seen both, and >assume that probably there's no significant difference except >looks. Ding Ding Ding! Carol, what do we have for our winner? :-). You are correct - no measurable difference - just looks (unless you do something REALLY wierd). -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 10:07:56 -0800 From: berkut@loop.com Subject: Re: COZY: Canard Tips (fwd) NNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! (I don't want to post this under my name - the competitor thing and all, but:) The upturned (reverse Hoerner) tip, if correctly done, gives _slightly_ less drag than a straight or rounded tip. HOWEVER - a DOWNWARD tip will delay stall, the same way it does on a Cessna STOL tip. You don't want this in a canard -- you want predictable stall at a lower alpha than the main wing. _DONT_ do a downward tip. >Jim Hocut asks; > >>What's the difference (aerodynamically speaking) between an >>up-turned and down-turned canard tip? I've seen both, and >>assume that probably there's no significant difference except >>looks. > >Ding Ding Ding! Carol, what do we have for our winner? :-). You are >correct - no measurable difference - just looks (unless you do something >REALLY wierd). > >-- >Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com > > -- Czech Sikhs! Richard Riley "Heavier than air flying machines are impossible." Lord Kelvin, President, Royal Society, c 1895 See the Berkut at http://www.berkut.com Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:07:17 -0500 (CDT) From: wkasty@ix.netcom.com Subject: COZY: Chapter 11 Elevator hardware alodining I have been trying to decide how many of these parts for the elevator I wish to alodine. Besides the couple of nightmare stories of corrosion, do most of the flying Long-ezes and Cozys have metal prepped parts? Also, the NC-3s have a press fit brass bearing, can this part (which is exposed to the elements) also be etched and alodined? Another question, the hinge pin is already a snug fit, will prepping these parts make the fit tighter yet? Does the pin get easier to remove/install after doing so numerous times in the building process? Bill Kastenholz wkasty@ix.netcom.com Cozy MKIV 536 by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-7 #17060) with SMTP id <01IKPXVTXN6Q9ERSUF@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:09:01 EST Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 11:03:53 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: COZY: sparrow strainer? Organization: AEROCAD INC. The aerodynamic elevator trim called a sparrow strainer that is used on the Velocity's and the Q-type airplanes works GREAT on our AeroCanard that has the Ronce R1145MS dihedral canard installed. I used a 6" long airfoil that was about 2" less then the Velocity uses. It was the best money I spent for a part. My work load flying by my self went way down in bad weather. -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com Phone/ fax (call first): 910-961-2238 AeroCad: http://www.aerocad.com Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-7 #17060) with SMTP id <01IKQ6XU8ORG9F4JJC@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 15:27:58 EST Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 15:22:52 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: COZY: Re: sparrow strainer Organization: AEROCAD INC. lschuler@cellular.uscc.com wrote: > Tell us how these work and a bit of design info please. The trim device is a upside down (small) wing that is mounted to the elevator by small fiberglass arms at the right placement. It fights the elevator to it's trimed location. Meaning if the elevator is pushed up by air then the sparrow strainer pushes it back to level. Who came up with the design? I don't know. -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-7 #17060) with SMTP id <01IKQH1KEEVO9EVKC4@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:17:17 EST Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 20:12:15 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: COZY: Re: sparrow strainer Organization: AEROCAD INC. Krasa-1, Paul wrote: > This sounds like a neat device. When you added it to your airplane did > it change the overall trim of the canard, and how would it effect > elevator flutter? The trim springs did not seem to need any change for normal flight. The overall trim of the elevator also was the same. Normaly at the aft Cg of my airplane the canard is twitchy, same at high speed. This TOTALY went away. My Cozy-3 had the same feeling at high speed with the GU canard and the Ronce canard. This dampener would seem to help eliminate flutter don't you think? My fauther seems to think so and he IS an Aero Engineer. I have tested to 230 MPH and found no flutter and hope to never find it :-) I will retest this part to see again that flutter will not be a problem. -- Jeff From: wkasty@ix.netcom.com Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:38:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: COZY: Chapter 11 elevator angle I have two questions regarding the elevator relationship to the canard: 1. When the elevator is in it's full up position, is there still a gap between the elevator and canard. If so, how big is the gap? 2. If there is a gap, do the NC-2s establish the maximum upward travel limit when the NC-3 hinges hit them? Thanks for a quick response, since I hope to flox the hinges in place tomorrow. One more thing, did anyone try to temporarily attach these hinges with a minimum of flox, then check the movement of the elevator and then finish the floxing? I'm afraid filling with flox would be rather permanent! Bill Kastenholz wkasty@ix.netcom.com From: SBLANKDDS@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Chapter 11 elevator angle RE: Elevator travel: Use the new template that set the hinges with the elevator in the maximum up range needed!!! They came out right after I set the hinges..... Otherwise there is a lot of adjusting to get the correct travel. (Downward movement is no problem). All fininshed Cozy's i have seen have from a mm or two to a 1/4"++ of a gap at level elevator position... Steve Blank Cozy Mark IV #36.... From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Chapter 11 elevator angle (fwd) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 10:09:44 EDT Bill Kastenholtz wrote: >1. When the elevator is in it's full up position, is there >still a gap between the elevator and canard. Not on mine. The elevator is stopped at just about the full required up position by the elevator just coming into contact with the wing trailing edge. >..... One more thing, did anyone try to temporarily >attach these hinges with a minimum of flox, then check the >movement of the elevator and then finish the floxing? No, but it's an interesting idea. As Steve Blanks said, if you use the new template, you'll guarantee your "up-movement". >.... I'm afraid filling with flox would be rather permanent! Geez, I hope so! :-). -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: DFinn7971@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:01:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Chapter 11 elevator angle (fwd) In a message dated 97-07-14 10:10:35 EDT, marcz@hpwarhw.an.hp.com (Marc J. Zeitlin) writes: << >1. When the elevator is in it's full up position, is there >still a gap between the elevator and canard. Not on mine. The elevator is stopped at just about the full required up position by the elevator just coming into contact with the wing trailing edge. >> Hi Marc, As a thought, you might run into a minor cosmetic problem once the elevators are painted. If you go to full up position and hte top of the elevator touchs the canard the paint will begin to wear quickly. You might consider sanding the trailing edge to leave a small gap. Dick Finn Cozy Mark IV #46 DFINN7971@AOL.COM by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-7 #23426) with SMTP id <01IL9EMG395W8ZDXL4@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:32:52 EST Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:24:41 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: Chapter 11 elevator angle (fwd) Organization: AEROCAD INC. DFinn7971@aol.com wrote: > As a thought, you might run into a minor cosmetic problem once the elevators > are painted. If you go to full up position and hte top of the elevator > touchs the canard the paint will begin to wear quickly. You might consider > sanding the trailing edge to leave a small gap. If you use this much control to pitch the nose down you will be looking at a ground :-) Don't worry about hitting the elevators at the trailing edge. -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com Phone/ fax (call first): 910-961-2238 AeroCad: http://www.aerocad.com Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 19:39:13 -0500 From: Daryl Lueck Subject: COZY: elevator torque tube and hinge points Can someone with the short canard (Nat's recommended length) please tell me the length of the elevators, the elevator torque tubes and the hinge points in the canard? I completed the canard last year and want to attach the elevators while it's raining and cold up here. I went to check the attach points and realized that the inboard attach points are too far in. I think I forgot to adjust one of the measurements when I shortened the canard. thanks much, Daryl Lueck Cozy IV #243 N797DL Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:14:50 -0400 From: David Domeier Subject: Re: COZY: elevator torque tube and hinge points Daryl, The elevator hinge points are not changed by complying with manditory elevator shortening. Simply take a hack saw and remove the outboard 3 inches of canard and elevator and reinstall the tips. If you are building, simply shorten the canard length from the outboard ends. This is a very important change in that it allows for a slighty more aft CG by moving the center of lift slightly aft. Burt Rutan did the same thing with the Long EZ many years ago. dd From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: elevator torque tube and hinge points (fwd) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 9:24:48 EDT Daryl Lueck; >Can someone with the short canard (Nat's recommended length) please tell >me the length of the elevators, the elevator torque tubes and the hinge >points in the canard? ...... I went to >check the attach points and realized that the inboard attach points are >too far in. I think I forgot to adjust one of the measurements when I >shortened the canard. I'll check the #'s tonight, but if I remember correctly, none of the hinge points moved when Nat chopped 3" per side. I think you're just supposed cut 3" from the plans elevator and torque tube lengths from the ends. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:29:53 -0700 From: Mahan Subject: Re: COZY: elevator torque tube and hinge points David Domeier wrote: This is a very important change in that it allows for a slighty more > aft CG by moving the center of lift slightly aft. Burt Rutan did the > same thing with the Long EZ many years ago. To pick a nit, David, it was the VariEze canard that was reduced from 150" (used for light engines like a C-65) to 142" (heavy engines, like full-house O-200 or O-235). The Long-EZ GU canard was always 142". Fred in Florida From: wkasty@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 22:25:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: elevator torque tube and hinge points On 08/17/97 19:39:13 you wrote: > >Can someone with the short canard (Nat's recommended length) please tell >me the length of the elevators, the elevator torque tubes and the hinge >points in the canard? I completed the canard last year and want to >attach the elevators while it's raining and cold up here. I went to >check the attach points and realized that the inboard attach points are >too far in. I think I forgot to adjust one of the measurements when I >shortened the canard. > > thanks much, > Daryl Lueck > Cozy IV #243 > N797DL > > Hi Daryl, I tried responding directly to you but couldn't get a message through. The hinge points in the plans (new edition) are at 15.6 / 42.5 / 67.4 inches and the elevator is 52.1 to start with. The center torque tube is 30.2 My canard, after measuring locations came out at 15.6 / 42.7 / 67.5 and the center torque tube at exactly 30.0 which fits the inner hinges with the offsets attached. I enjoyed the cozy dinner and appreciate all of your hard work organizing it. The cozy stories by volunteers were probably more interesting to me being such a newbie, than the missing speaker. Bill Kastenholz wkasty@ix.netcom.com CozyMKIV # 536 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 03:59:08 GMT From: william l kleb Subject: COZY: chap 11 - part drawings chapter 11, page 3, has drawings of various parts: o i would like to know the thickness of the control arm (NC-12) which is part of the torque tube offset assembly (MKNC-12A). the thickness isn't indicated on the drawing, but appears to be either 1/8" or .090". could someone measure this? o the pitch trim bellcrank assembly (NC-5A) is shown in the brock catalog as having a slot in the tubing next to the bellcrank arm, but the drawing in chap 11 does not indicate a slot. i can't figure out what use a slot would be since the assembly is riveted to the center torque tube spool piece in step 6. can anyone enlighten me as to this mystery slot? FYI: '96 brock-prices: $234 and $40.75, respectively. ouch. psst: anyone feel like dropping their elevator jigs (NC-7) in an envelope so i don't have to give brock anymore than i already have to? --- bil From: "Marc J. Zeitlin" Subject: COZY: chap 11 - part drawings (fwd) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 97 22:03:07 EDT bil kleb wrote: >o i would like to know the thickness of the control arm (NC-12) > to be either 1/8" or .090". could someone measure this? Sure - I can measure it. Oh - you want the answer? Looks like 3/32" to me (0.09375"). > in step 6. can anyone enlighten me as to this mystery slot? Yep. It's a mystery slot. Has absolutely no use whatsoever, as far as I can tell. It's in the piece that Brock sent me, but I sure never did anything with it and I'm about done with both the canard, elevators, and trim system. If you make your own, ignore it. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-8 #23426) with SMTP id <01IN4F6VV7Y0906B49@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:52:25 EDT Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 08:50:33 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: chap 11 - part drawings (fwd) Organization: AEROCAD INC. Marc J. Zeitlin wrote: > > bil kleb wrote: > > in step 6. can anyone enlighten me as to this mystery slot? > > Yep. It's a mystery slot. Has absolutely no use whatsoever, as far > as I can tell. It's in the piece that Brock sent me, but I sure never > did anything with it and I'm about done with both the canard, elevators, > and trim system. If you make your own, ignore it. The slot was use on the Long-EZ because the tube has a NC-2 at that location. Brock WILL NOT make them without it to make them cheeper for us. I asked :-) -- Jeff Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 08:33:52 -0400 From: bil kleb Organization: NASA Langley Research Center Subject: COZY: chap 11: elevator mounting the chapter 11 archives reveal several stories of woe concerning mounting the elevators to the canard. as we all know (or should) marc z ended up with his elevators mounted about 1/16" too low so that they are slightly below the bottom surface of the canard. he attributed this to not checking his canard upper surface contour after sawing off the top of the fishtail. another revealed that in trying to get the 0.2" minimum gap specified in figure 18, he also ended up mounting his elevator 0.1" below the bottom of the canard. yet another had read all the previous warnings, mounted the elevators, and still had them come out low. he concluded that the foam cutting templates (a&b) have the lower portion of the fishtail (actually the bottom of the trailing edge of the canard) too low when compared to the contour checking templates (e&f), thus causing the 0.2" minimum gap dilemma. i decided to check out this hypothesis. here is what i found: the canard hot-wire templates (a&b) match exactly with the canard contour checking templates (e&f). note, however, that this leaves no account of the 5 glass layers added to the canard surfaces unless you use the insides of the lines. anyway, as far as i can discern, the trouble begins when you compare the canard hot-wire template (a or b) with the elevator hot-wire templates and the elevator mounting jig template (l). as drawn there is no way to achieve the 0.2" minimum gap specified in figure 18. so either: o the trailing edge of the canard is too low o the elevator is too fat (again, no account of the skin thickness, unless you use the inside of the lines) o the 0.2" minimum cannot be maintained as measured (which wouldn't be guaranteed if you used tom m's blessed(?) elevator mounting jig template from newsletter #50 that guarantees 15 degree up travel) note: there appears to be a 0.2" gap when measured between the leading edge of the elevator and the canard, but not between the top of the elevator and the canard as shown in figure 18 anyone else care to add to the growing saga? -- bil by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-8 #23426) with SMTP id <01IN7ARSK04Y8ZYGGQ@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:18:09 EDT Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 10:18:14 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: chap 11: elevator mounting Organization: AEROCAD INC. bil kleb wrote: > note: there appears to be a 0.2" gap when measured between > the leading edge of the elevator and the canard, but not between > the top of the elevator and the canard as shown in figure 18 > > anyone else care to add to the growing saga? bill, I can tell you that the 4 canards I have built and flown have had small differences in the mounting of the elevators. The straight canard on the AeroCanard had the elevators mounted with only .10 gap between the trailing edge of the canard. Burt said at Oshkosh that a dead spot would be found if this gap got to large. I only had 11 degrees up elevator because of the way I mounted them. This is what Berkut does and I went back to the .18 on the bent canard with no dead spot. It might be the elevator that hangs down lower then the bottom of the canard :-) -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com Phone/ fax (call first): 910-961-2238 AeroCad: http://www.aerocad.com Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com From: Epplin John A Subject: RE: COZY: chap 11: elevator mounting Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:34:15 -0500 See bil kleb post from this morning. For what its worth: I called Nat when I got to that point, he said to sand a 'hair' off of the lower trailing edge of the canard foam core. I questioned the conversion factor of 'hair' to inches, did not get a hard number. What I did is cut out some templates of the elevator and canard cross-sections allowing for skin thickness and using the hinge pieces and elevator torque tube inserts then played a paper doll game. I am not sure what I came up with but I think it was more than 1/16 in of foam removed from the lower trailing edge. Fortunately I did this before I had skinned the canard. I then faired the fish-tail into the upper surface and skinned the canard. I used the mounting jigs in the original plans, being a bit leery of the angled system after Marc's experience. The end result was near perfect, 14 deg up, 30 deg down and a gap of .200 as close as one can measure using number drills as a feeler gage. Worked for me, no guarantees for anyone else John Epplin Mk4 #467 by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-8 #23426) with SMTP id <01IN7YIRTZM090AZBZ@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:38:01 EDT Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 21:38:19 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: COZY: Re: [Fwd: Dihedral Canard] Organization: AEROCAD INC. Terence J. Pierce wrote: > Jeff Russell and whoever else knows, > > Can you give us some details on what needs to be done to make a dihedral > canard. Like how do you make the transistion from the flat section of > the canard that goes through the fuselage to upward angle of flying > surface. And how do you do the elevators? Are you using some kind of > universal joint? Terry, the plans can be purchased from Vance if you want to build from scrach. It shows how the cores are mounted 3" higher at the tips from the fuselage. A extra ply top and bottom of UNI is added over the bent area to beef that up. A universal joint is needed at the center tube with bushings but the elevators are built the same. Just the center tube is cut in half. Hope that helps......... -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com Phone/ fax (call first): 910-961-2238 AeroCad: http://www.aerocad.com Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 08:49:46 -0400 From: bil kleb Organization: NASA Langley Research Center Subject: RE: COZY: chap 11: elevator mounting rego burger (burgerr@telkom.co.za) permitted me to pass his input on to the group: I found that the trailing edge was quite large on mine, so I just trimmed it at an angle with a sander till I got the elevator deflection 99% I ended up taking about 4-5mm off and am left with at least 3/8" trailing edge which I feel will still keep the skins together. However if you modify the jig holding the elevator aligned for mounting the hinges to the canard by moving it back about 1/8" you will have to remove far less trailing edge. How much this will effect performance I can't say. Also with what I did, I get the right travel now, but when painted I'll have a marginal less amount!????? I was not happy with the idea of having the elevator lower than the canard as this looked too draggy for me. Besides the aesthetics would be spoiled. I just hope I never need all the down travel. I seem to recall the limits as 12-15 deg. Mine was at 14deg. so with paint on it may drop .5deg to 13,5deg. Maybe a compromise between these two ideas will help you, move it back half of what I suggest and trim off half the trailing edge...? end of rego's words of wisdom. -- bil by r2.boston.juno.com (8.8.6.Beta0/8.8.6.Beta0/2.0.kim) with ESMTP id OAAAA26231 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:30:20 -0400 (EDT) by x14.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OLQ20427; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:26:07 EDT Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:25:03 -0400 Subject: COZY: Canard Tips From: gmellen@juno.com (George J Mellen Jr.) In the building of the canard for my Three place Cozy, I left the tips relatively (per plans) square. I have noticed a lot of canards with various different treatments to the tips i e.. up turned or down turned. Is this an attempt to control vortices? Or does it just look COOL? Does the Mark IV plans specify how to build these? Marc I've seen the pictures on your web pages. Is there a specification to build by, or do you just wing it and build something pleasing to the eye? Thanks George Mellen gmellen@juno.com From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Canard Tips (fwd) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 17:04:51 EDT George Mellen wrote: >Is this an attempt to control vortices? Maybe for some, it might be. It's part of the plans for the MKIV. >Or does it just look COOL? I have a suspicion that this is the true object :-). No one has demonstrated a real difference in performance by modifying the tips, or if they have, they certainly have not publicized it within the past 3 or 4 years. >Does the Mark IV plans specify how to build these? Marc I've seen the >pictures on your web pages. Yep. Calls it out explicitly. I imagine that there will be some difference due to builder interpretation, but you get basically the plans shape. >Is there a specification to build by, or do you just wing it and build >something pleasing to the eye? There's a template, but it doesn't cover the WHOLE shape, just a couple of control points. Mostly, you use the template and sand the urethane until it looks good. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:39:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Nigel Field Subject: Re: COZY: Canard Tips At 02:25 PM 9/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >In the building of the canard for my Three place Cozy, I left the tips >relatively (per plans) square. > I have noticed a lot of canards with various different treatments to the >tips i e.. up turned or down turned. > >Is this an attempt to control vortices? > >Or does it just look COOL? > >Does the Mark IV plans specify how to build these? Marc I've seen the >pictures on your web pages. > >Is there a specification to build by, or do you just wing it and build >something pleasing to the eye? > >Thanks > > >George Mellen gmellen@juno.com > George, I am building a MK III also. Here is what I found regarding canard tips on my Vari-eze. I started with square tips on a Roncz airfoil canard. I taped a piece of red yarn 24 inches long on each tip and went flying. At 150 Kts IAS the yarn described a circle about 12 inch diameter from the vortex. During landing approach 75 Kts it was more like 15 inches before they ripped off within a few seconds of each other. I made the plans type upswept tips same as the MK IV uses and flew it again with a reuction in vortex to about 8 inches at 150 Kts. I later cut those off and made flat (uncurved in the vertical) semi-eliptical tips with an under cut curve shape on the bottom which caused the air to form a swirl reverse of the natural vortex. The yarn test showed 3 inches at 150 Kts and about 4 inches at 75 Kts. I concluded from this that the vortex was smaller with the under cut tips but I could not see any speed difference. Could be the same amount of energy was being used (drag) just distributed differently. The tip description is hard to describe but there are some pictures of my VE at: http://johnny-enterprises.com/nigel/ The second to last one shows the canard and you can see the under cut flat tips. Regards, Nigel Field From: Bes1612@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:49:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: COZY: elevator torque tubes What am I missing? I see in chapter 11, page 3, that the torque tube is 52.1" long. (must be the shorter canard?) The elevator foam blocks are 55 inches. My canard wing is 54.5" from the end to the edge of the lift tab. This puts my CZNC-12A controle arm outside of the fuselage! On page 2, it shows the full application. The wing is 51", (not counting the 5" tip) to the fuselage, same as the elevator. Do I cut my wing down to match my elevator? And cut the elevator foam to that size? Bob. CZ plans 588 From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: elevator torque tubes (fwd) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 13:38:15 EST Robert Smith wrote: >I see in chapter 11, page 3, that the torque tube is 52.1" long. (must be >the shorter canard?) Yes, and you must have a later edition plans - the original plans show it at 55.1". >..... The elevator foam blocks are 55 inches. My canard wing >is 54.5" from the end to the edge of the lift tab. This puts my CZNC-12A > controle arm outside of the fuselage! For some reason, you've made your wing the "long" version - if you had cut off the outer 3" of the canard, it would be 51" from the tip to the center section/outer section core micro joint (See ch 11, pg. 2 picture). All you need to do, it seems, is to decide whether you're going to follow Nat's advice and cut your canard down to the "short" version, or make your elevators 3" longer at the tips. >....... On page 2, it shows the full >application. The wing is 51", (not counting the 5" tip) to the fuselage, >same as the elevator. Do I cut my wing down to match my elevator? And cut >the elevator foam to that size? See the previous paragraph. Apparently, the second edition plans still had some errors with respect to canard length for the short canard (or else you missed the corrections). The canard should have ended up 141" tip to tip, not the original 147". The elevators should have ended up 52.1", not the original 55.1". -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: "campbell" Subject: COZY: Oops - Chapter 11 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:06:23 If I ever decide to build another plane, one of the first things that I will invest in will be a permanent marker to designate right and left side parts. I messed up again, and I am looking for some advice. As I was working on installing the connecting rods between the side sticks and the elevators (chapter 16), I noticed that the holes in the NC-12s did not line up properly with the center torque tube of the elevator. After much puzzling I figured out that back in chapter 11 I drilled the holes with the NC-12s reversed (left one on the right side). If I put them in the correct positions with respect to the tube, the pitch trim bell crank (NC-5) is backwards and interferes with F28. My options as I see them: 1) I will be using Vance's electric trim system. This system attaches to the connecting rod between the pilot side control stick and the elevator and therefore doesn't use the bell crank. I think that I could just cut off the portion of the bell crank that is in the way. Is it used for anything other than pitch trim? 2) Rotate the center torque tube into the correct position and redrill the holes in the torque tube (or in the NC-12s). My concern here is leaving the extra holes in of the the pieces and potentially weaking the joint. 3) Drill out the rivits in NC-5 and replace the center torque tube. Sorry this message is so long. Any help gratefully appreciated. Steve Campbell OIT (Oaf in Training) From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Oops - Chapter 11 (fwd) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 97 8:54:06 EST Steve Campbell writes: >If I ever decide to build another plane, one of the first things that I >will invest in will be a permanent marker to designate right and left side >parts. I do this incessantly, and STILL screw up sometimes. I can't imagine how anyone could ever keep the L and R parts in the right place without marking them. Even the permanent marker wears off after a while, and I have to keep re-marking everything. >1) I will be using Vance's electric trim system..... >.... I think that I could just cut >off the portion of the bell crank that is in the way. Is it used for >anything other than pitch trim? Nope. But you might (someday) want to retrofit a manual system? See #3. >2) Rotate the center torque tube into the correct position and redrill the >holes in the torque tube (or in the NC-12s). My concern here is leaving >the extra holes in of the the pieces and potentially weaking the joint. The bolts transfer the load through direct pressure on their holes, and by slightly "ovaling" the tubes so that they can transmit torque directly through contact with each other. The highest stress in the tubes will be around the bolt hole, and I suspect that as long as the non-working holes are approximately 90 degrees away from the working ones, there would be no affect on the strength. >3) Drill out the rivits in NC-5 and replace the center torque tube. This is the tack I would take. Cheap, (just need a new piece of straight tubing) easy, (just need to drill out some rivits and drill new screw holes, and safe (don't end up with any extra holes or cutoff pieces). You could always do #3 AFTER #1, if you so chose, so #1 is pretty safe, too. >OIT (Oaf in Training) And an excellent Journeyman Oaf you're turning out to be :-). -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 10:52:43 -0500 From: Ian Douglas Organization: WTC Subject: Re: COZY: Oops - Chapter 11 (fwd) >1) I will be using Vance's electric trim system..... >.... I think that I could just cut >off the portion of the bell crank that is in the way. Is it used for >anything other than pitch trim? Sounds OK but I would make sure that you get the full travel required with the stick and linkages all conected. >3) Drill out the rivits in NC-5 and replace the center torque tube. I would opt for #3 myself. -- Ian D.S. Douglas MK0069 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:54:10 -0400 From: Jane Faussett Subject: COZY: Brock I can't afford to purchase the pre-fabricated parts for chapter 11 from Brock. I'm thinking of making my own, but neither the instruction manual or the drawings show a detail of the MKNC-12A showing the .75" hinge block. Has anyone else built their own hardware? I have access to a lathe and mill and think that the other parts look pretty straight forward and would be easy to fabricate. I am guessing that it would be 1" round 4130 steel X .75 length drilled the same as the NC-2 hinges. Also, what do the lead weights weigh? If anyone else has constructed these parts, I would sure like to hear from you. Tom Faussett Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:53:22 -0500 From: "Edmond A. Richards" Subject: COZY:Re: Brock Tom Faussett writes: >I can't afford to purchase the pre-fabricated parts for chapter 11 from Brock. I'm thinking of making my own,.......... If anyone else has constructed these parts, I would sure like to hear from you.< Tom, I felt the same way at the time and made them myself. I did all the machining and had a pro do the welding. I created AutoCad drawings of al= l the parts in chapter 11 to use as construction drawings. I wiil be more than happy to forward the file to you if you have a way to read it. The files are AutoCad 12 ".DWG" format. If you can't use the drawings in thi= s format I will be glad to print them and send them snail mail if you give your address. Marc, Do you want these files to include in your web site? Ed Richards Cozy #88 Still trying to finish the engine installation. Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:08:39 +0200 From: Rego Burger Subject: COZY: Brock / metal parts-Reply Hi All, I have always weighed up the time / cost and risk factors of home made parts. What I found was that the airframe is labour intensive enough. So to take time off to manufacture metal parts was just not worth it.... besides a few plates, lead balance weights and the odd bracket I bought all from Brock and paid 4.8 times more as a result of exchange rates, plus 14 % vat plus freight which often = the cost of the parts. So in reality I paid about 10 times more than any folks in the states would based on earnings / expense ratios. This move gave me just enough time among all my other activities to concentrate on the airframe..which after 5yrs of interrupted work is now reaching the dawn of closing stages. Ask yourself, if this part broke would the $ 10-00 saving be worth it? Is it going to cause a tragic end to a flight or would it just be an inconvenience to repair. If it will cause no life or limb damage make it, if it's a threat to safety buy it! If it will keep me from working on the airframe for days or weeks buy it! The last question I ask myself is what could I be earning in this time spent making the items? Just weigh it all up! Maybe someone could approach Brock for bulk order discounts...say ten guys want the nosewheel assembly...1 offs may go at $100-00 but for an order of ten they may sell at $90-00 each. Many production constraints are offset by setup times etc. ........... Rego Burger CZ4#139 RSA http://home.intekom.com/glen/rnb.htm Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:20:33 -0800 From: Stet Elliott Subject: COZY: Elevator Hinge Pin Rattle Has anyone else noticed that the stainless steel hinge pin in the new Roncz canard rattles against the inside of their elevator torque tube? I can't much hear it in flight, but it can be heard with a sharp tap on the canard. Over time, this can't be good for the elevator torque tubes. Anyone have a solution?? -- Stet Elliott flyez@earthlink.net Long-EZ N321EF From: SWrightFLY Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:14:32 EST Subject: COZY: .02" gap needed between elevator and canard Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) After finishing the dihedral canard I am now jigging the elevator up to it and find my elevators are a bit fat and the elevator almost touches the canard when clamped on the jig block "L" . The only solution I can think of is to raise (the canard is mounted upside down on the bench) the elevator until I get the .02" gap. This will result in the elevator hanging below (when the canard is right side up) the ideal position relative to the canard. The NC3s are not floxed in yet. Any and all comments and suggestions are welcomed. Steve Wright Wright Aircraft Works LLC From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: .02" gap needed between elevator and canard (fwd) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 97 13:57:30 EST Steve Wright wrote: >....... This will result in the elevator hanging below (when the >canard is right side up) the ideal position relative to the canard. The NC3s >are not floxed in yet. Any and all comments and suggestions are welcomed. Steve, I had exactly this problem with my canard (although not necessarily for the same reason). See the archives for 1996 for chapter 10 and 11, or look at my web pages for chapter 10 and 11 and follow the links to the OAF page, or problem page (I forget exactly what it's called, but it's pretty obvious when you get there). I got a lot of feedback, from Roncz included, and will be flying the plane with the elevator ~1/16 below the design point on his recommendation. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 08:29:32 -0500 From: "Jeff S. Russell http://www.AeroCad.com" Organization: AeroCad Inc. Subject: Re: COZY: .02" gap needed between elevator and canard SWrightFLY wrote: > > After finishing the dihedral canard I am now jigging the elevator up to it and > find my elevators are a bit fat and the elevator almost touches the canard > when clamped on the jig block "L" . The only solution I can think of is to > raise (the canard is mounted upside down on the bench) the elevator until I > get the .02" gap. This will result in the elevator hanging below (when the > canard is right side up) the ideal position relative to the canard. The NC3s > are not floxed in yet. Any and all comments and suggestions are welcomed. Steve, Sounds like your T.E. is too low on your canard. Have you checked this. -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com P.O. Box 7307 Port St. Lucie FL. 34985 Shop# 561-460-8020 Home# 561-343-7366 Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:31:02 -0500 From: "Jeff S. Russell http://www.AeroCad.com" Organization: AeroCad Inc. Subject: Re: COZY: .02" gap needed between elevator and canard SWrightFLY wrote: > > Steve Wright wrote: > The T.E. is a good match to the drawing. The elevator foam core was to fat. It > should have been sanded some where it intersects with the TE of the canard. > The cores are the ones I got from you years ago. I will have to live with it I > guess. The overall distance the elevators will be lower than Ideal will be > about .15 inches below the idea position (per drawings) Do you feel this will > affect the way the canard will perform in flight? > thank for responding. Steve, On the safe side, I would sand the top skin off the elevators and sand the cores to the shape that will repeat the top template of the top elevator. I always sand the cores after the bottom skin is installed. We try to hotwire the cores oversize just a bt for burn-out and wire lag. I use the top template and press the template into the core to mark them about every 3 inches. Then I glass them giving as good as shape as I can get. Don't forget to sand a depresson for the mass balance UNI rap. The buildup of UNI will be seen if you don't. Hope that helps -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com P.O. Box 7307 Port St. Lucie FL. 34985 Shop# 561-460-8020 Home# 561-343-7366 Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com