Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 23:39:04 -0500 From: JHocut@aol.com Subject: Ch 5 build time & weights Between the holidays and out of town trips for my (soon to be former) employer I've actually managed to finish ch. 5 (time for another bottle of champaigne !!!). For the growing database of information I offer the following: Build time (ch. 5) 54 hours Weights: Fuse left side 9.88 lbs Fuse right side 9.95 lbs Note that my time for this chapter is a little high because of horsing around figuring out how to vac. bag the fuse sides (plus I got in a hurry once or twice and had to rework a couple of things). After having gone through the excercise I question whether vac. bagging is worth the effort for this particular chapter (as I recall Lee Devlin's weights for these were 11.2 and 11.3) However, I only bagged the first layup (2 plies uni overall) and not the longeron layup or the 6 plies bid at the aft end of the sides. If I were to do it over again I could probably figure out an efficient means of including these other layups, then it MIGHT prove worthwhile. I am still enthusiastic about vac. bagging, and plan on continuing wherever it looks feasible. After all, one of the definitions of an "Experimental" aircraft is "for the education of the builder", and I'm definitely getting educated - I'm thinking my next project is going to be a sail plane and weight savings will be super important for that. Jim Hocut Cozy IV # 448 Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 15:30:24 From: JRaerocad@gnn.com (Jeff Russell) Subject: COZY: AeroCad Weights Weights on AeroCad parts and others: Bulkheads F-22 3 lbs F-28 1 lbs instrument panel btm 1.5 lbs molded top 3.5 lbs Front seat 5 lbs center keel 3 lbs electrical ducts (2) 2 lbs MG 110.25 2 lbs MG 118.5 5 lbs Turtle back 3 lbs Head rest 2 lbs 1 pc firewall 13 lbs NG-30 with F-0 & brock gear 8 lbs Strake bulkheads 6 lbs front seat thigh bulkheads (4) 10 oz rear seat thigh bulkheads (4) 8 oz front seat thigh support 2.5 lbs rear seat thigh support 2 lbs Front arm rests (both) 3 lbs rear arm rest (both) 3 lbs Main gear without wraps 28 lbs Main with first 4 wraps 31 lbs Main gear with tabs 37 lbs Main with 15-600-6 wheels & brakes ,tires,gear studs 79 lbs Nose gear with pivot ,forks and wheel/tire 13 lbs 15-600-6 wheels and brakes with tires installed 35 lbs total AeroCanard molded tub with 3 lb 1/2"pvc with longerons 51 lbs AeroCanard molded tub with 5 lb 3/8"pvc with longerons 52 lbs AeroCanard top from F-0 top nose,canard cover,instrument cover, canopy,turtleback and top glass cowling. 48 lbs (5 lb 3/8"pvc) molded bottom nose with 5 lb 3/8" pvc 7 lbs molded top nose and canard cover with 5 lb 3/8" pvc 7 lbs AeroCanard bottom glass cowling 7 lbs molded top and bottom strakes with 5 lb 3/8" pvc 48 lbs total Canard chapter 10 complete in primer 29 lbs Canard with elevators and tips in primer 38 lbs Wings with Triaxial skins 52 lbs end ribs installed 56 lbs Our AeroCanard wings in primer without lower winglets no aileron or rudders installed 72 lbs each Our AeroCanard wings in primer with small lower winglets, ailerons and rudders installed 85.5 lbs each Berkut, Carbon vacuum bagged wings (ready to fill) no aileron or rudders installed 62 lbs Velocity small wings with cuffs no aileron or rudders installed (no fill) 87 lbs AeroCanard molded main spar with 2.4 and 6 lb pvc 50 lbs AeroCad O-360 & IO-360 engine mount without rubber mounts 7 lbs with the rubber mounts 10 lbs Our LIO-360-C1EC with oil & heavy accessories 335 lbs IO-360 6 cyl Cont. with mount and oil & accessories 383 lbs Cozy MkIV Tub with out landing brake finished 96 lbs Cozy MkIV Tub with NG-30 &F-0 with MG cover (finished in primer) 150 lbs AeroCad longer Ailerons in primer 7 lbs each Hope this helps AeroCad Inc. Jeff Russell 1445 Crater Lane Yadkinville, NC. 27055 910-961-2238 E-mail: JRaerocad@gnn.com Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 23:15:00 -0400 From: Jim Hocut Subject: COZY: Weight After Ch. 7 For another comparison point, my fuselage weight after chapter 7 was 77 pounds. I'm sure it would have been 2 or 3 pounds less than that except there were several minor things I wasn't satisfied with and cost myself a little bit of weight making repairs. For anyone who doesn't know, I've been vacuum bagging extensively, and believe that my weight savings from that is around 6 to 8 pounds so far. Jim Hocut jhocut@mindspring.com Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 12:31:49 -0700 From: Chris van Hoof Organization: C van Hoof - Architect Subject: COZY: End chapter 7 Hello to All, Today the sun is shining and the mood is fantastic. We did the last bit on chapter 07 yesterday and the layup looked good this morning, so we must be winning. Thanks to all who responded when advice was needed and for the encouragement received. Just for information to those who like numbers:- The Total Time spent in my playbox is 487hrs The Total Productive time in above is 337hrs The Total Study Time in above is 56hrs Other Time (building boxes/cleaning etc 94hrs The Other time includes "do it again" parts, general cleaning of the workshop, building worktables, Epoxy cupboard, Cutting table, shelving. Time placing orders, fetching materials, finding info etc is excluded but amounts to quite a lot, could easily be in the vicinity of 200hrs or more. ( the torroids alone took 14hrs) Total Study time includes study in the workshop only. When the plans/books go to bed with me is excluded, and the amount of info gleaned from the internet cannot be measured....and I now feel I am surrounded by so many friends! Total Productive time includes building jigs, tressles etc used only on the Cozy. Internet time is not included anywhere.... probably should be flying by now :-) Have fun friends! chris #219 in playbox with Cozy entering chapter 8 cvh@iafrica.com Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:26:33 -0400 From: AlWick@aol.com Subject: COZY: Time log spreadsheet Greetings fellow builders. I didn't see anything in archives regarding this so thought I'd contribute. I noticed that the most significant incentive for pushing myself toward more construction hours is the spreadsheet I use. Each morning when I first go to work, I add the hours from last night to spreadsheet. For some reason I really look forward to this and will work an extra 15 min as result. The spreadsheet predicts the completion date based upon my past performance. Actually has two completion dates, 1 is nats, the other inflated by 25%. The enticement is seeing the compl date change each day. It also tracks all of my costs and charts my progress. If I knew how to send Excel file would be glad to send someone copy. Complete date: Feb 2, 1999. 40.7% compl. 63.1hrs per month avg. 1221 ttl hrs. $9288 Al Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 18:30:13 -0400 From: COZYMK4@aol.com Subject: COZY: Building Times for Cozy Mk4 #90 I have enjoyed the Cozy Pages for the first time today. Thank you Mark for all of your wonderful work. I am impressed with my comparison times to other builders when I broke my log down into the various chapters instead of a straight ledger that I keep on MS Excel (and loose pieces of paper ;-) ). Chapter 4: 55 hours Chapter 5: 18 hours (oops, too few/low?) Chapter 6: 52.5 hours Chapter 7: 74.5 hours Chapter 8: 47 hours Chapter 9: 86 hours (90% done, brake lines, trim landing brake) Chapter 10: 43 hours Chapter 11: 52 hours Chapter 12: 4 hours Chapter 13: 140 hours (90% done, ballast door, shaping) Chapter 14: 115 hours 78 hours blown on first try due to top spar accidentally made with one cup of unmixed epoxy. (:-^) Chapter 19: 194 hours (90% done, one more aileron half done) Wings mounted to spar, first time, 9/29/96. Chapter 23: 10 hours ( 1% done) Next are the rudders ! Starting today. Rebuilding parts sure takes less time than the first, but.... Good luck and happy building to all. Kevin Funk From: "Krasa, Paul" Subject: COZY: fw: Eze Wings Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 04:33:12 -0500 I'm not sure if I got this from the rec.aviation.homebuilt or the Cozy builders. My wings are about fifty lbs. Has any one wieghed their finished wings? Paul Krasa >---------- >From: TysonD[SMTP:t.dekorse@worldnet.att.net] >Sent: Monday, November 18, 1996 4:37 AM >To: Paul.Krasa-1@kmail.ksc.nasa.gov >Subject: Eze Wings > >Would you know what the finished weight of a LongEze wing is? I have >purchased a set and would like to know if they are in the ball park. > Either the should-be or real-world weight would be helpful. > Thanks, Tyson > > From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: fw: Eze Wings (fwd) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 11:38:02 EST Paul Krasa writes: >I'm not sure if I got this from the rec.aviation.homebuilt or the Cozy >builders. >My wings are about fifty lbs. Has any one wieghed their finished wings? I'll be happy to weigh my wings and post the results (maybe by tomorrow). I have one wing with the winglet (upper and lower) in place and one wing without the winglet. Both have all the aileron paraphernalia in place. If people post the weights, it would be really useful to know exactly what configuration the weight represents. I'll repeat the exact configuration with each weight. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:36:50 +0200 From: Rego Burger Subject: COZY: fw: Eze Wings -Reply My Cozy Mk 4 wings and winglets weighed in at 22kg each so far, this excludes aileron torque tubes and fittings. 22 x 2.2 is about 48 lbs. this also excludes finishing micro and paint. Hope this guide helps. Rego Burger Port Elizabeth RSA Cozy Mk 4 #139 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:16:31 From: JRaerocad@gnn.com (Jeff Russell) Subject: Re: COZY: Weight of Wings/Winglets "Marc J. Zeitlin" wrote: >I don't have other wings constructed straight from plans to >compare mine to, but the foam and wing skins are the same as >Rego's, i.e. per plans >(although he may certainly be doing a better job at removing >epoxy than I am, it's hard to believe that he's doing a 10 lb/wing >better job), so the only thing that could be different is the >pre-molded spar. If I am correct (and I'm certainly open to >refutation from Jeff or anyone else who can present evidence of >higher weight stock COZY MKIV wings) then I would caution anyone >considering the wing kits to determine the tradeoffs involved between >higher weight and possibly higher quality wings to longer build times. >I'd very much like to see other examples of weights of COZY MKIV >wings built straight from plans. There is a point out there that most of you would never question. That the 2 lb blue extruded polystyrene foam can vary to about 1.5 to 3 lbs per square foot. Dow produces this foam for the building industry and to float docks. Not AIRPLANES!!! The weights seam to vary wildly from truckload to truckload. In the 16 years I have worked in foam, I have seen at least 6 different foam cells in the same style of foam. The blowing agent has been changed over the years because of the CFC's. I can tell you that I have made our molded spars using UNI and BID with 3" wide spar tape per plans and the spar weight was 20.5 lbs per spar. I just went out to the shop and got a weight of 21.5 lbs each per 4 spars I had in stock. I used Biaxial cloth for the shear web and 3" spar tape. We use a 3 lb Extruded -P.S. foam that is inserted with 3 lb pour foam. This might add about 1-2 lbs more per spar then the 2 lb per plans foam. This was to make them stronger. I think foam is the BIG weight difference here. Blame Dow Chemical, But don't let them know that it went into a Airplane!! About filling a wing for paint. You should weigh the wing before and after it has been filled and finished. You will be suprised what just 2 coats of primmer will weigh. What about hard shelling under the wing skin. Part of your filling weight is there??? Keep building, have fun, and safe flying. AeroCad Inc. Jeff Russell 1445 Crater Lane Yadkinville, NC. 27055 phone/fax 910-961-2238 E-mail: JRaerocad@gnn.com NEW homepage address: http://www.binary.net/aerocad From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Weight of Wings/Winglets Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 11:53:02 EST People; Weights of wings/winglets, all with no finishing micro or primer: Finished Wing alone: 51 lbs. (no aileron, torque tube or winglet) Aileron: 6 lbs. (with torque tube) Wing, Aileron and Winglet: 74 lbs. (upper and lower, with all paraphernalia) All these weights were taken from a bathroom scale, so I'd put a +/- 2 lbs. tolerance on them. Now for the caveats and opinions. In comparison to Rego's numbers, these seem a bit high. I also remember seeing some weights of wings a while ago that were somewhat lower than these as well, but I don't remember exactly what they included or where I saw them, so I'll discount that. I purchased Jeff Russell's wing kit, which included the premolded spars. I _THINK_ I did a good job of removing excess epoxy from the wing skin layups, so where's the difference in weights? Let's review: On May 14th, Jeff Russell posted the following weights for AeroCad parts: Wings with Triaxial skins 52 lbs end ribs installed 56 lbs Our AeroCanard wings in primer without lower winglets no aileron or rudders installed 72 lbs each Our AeroCanard wings in primer with small lower winglets, ailerons and rudders installed 85.5 lbs each Given this (and the fact that it's impossible for me to believe that I will add 13 lbs of micro and primer to each wing) I seem to have come in slightly under Jeff's weights, but higher than per-plans stock wing weights. My personal belief (from examining the AeroCad pre-molded spars) is that the use of the Bi-Axial and Tri-Axial cloth in the manufacturing of these spars leads to the use of a lot more epoxy than would otherwise be the case if straight UNI and BID were used. I say this because the Bi and Tri seem to have a LOT more air space within each layer and between each layer, and the spars seemed to have many large air voids in them that were filled with epoxy during the molding of the spars. Given that my weights are slightly lower than Jeff's, and I used UNI on the wing skins instead of Tri-Axial cloth, I think my hypothesis is at least marginally supported by facts. I don't have other wings constructed straight from plans to compare mine to, but the foam and wing skings are the same as Rego's, i.e. per plans (although he may certainly be doing a better job at removing epoxy than I am, it's hard to believe that he's doing a 10 lb/wing better job), so the only thing that could be different is the pre-molded spar. If I am correct (and I'm certainly open to refutation from Jeff or anyone else who can present evidence of higher weight stock COZY MKIV wings) then I would caution anyone considering the wing kits to determine the tradeoffs involved between higher weight and possibly higher quality wings to longer build times. I'd very much like to see other examples of weights of COZY MKIV wings built straight from plans. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:17:08 -0500 From: Nigel Field Subject: Re: COZY: Weight of Wings/Winglets At 11:53 AM 11/21/96 EST, Marc wrote re wing weights: Just went and weighed my MK III wing parts. I think they are virtually the same as the MK IV except for the TE kink, at least can't see any other difference and have both plans. Wings complete with ailerons on and all linkage hardware but not micro filled 55 and 54 lbs. Ailerons alone are 7 lbs, a lot of that is balance weight. Upper winglets with rudder HW installed and 15 ft rg-58 coax and multi wire VHF antennas 7 lbs each. No lower winglets yet (perhaps not at all). Winglets not on so that layup will add some weight say 4 or 5 pounds as a SWAG. All structure was hard shelled and layed up exclusively with uni glass and spar tape (no bi-ax or tri-ax) and 2410/2184 as per plans. So adding it up 55+7+5=67. Add to that lower winglets and finish to go. I fully agree with your hypothesis that tri-ax is heavier and have stated that before. No experience with Bi-ax. Nigel Field Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:03:12 -0500 From: CCady@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Weight of Wings/Winglets In a message dated 96-11-21 16:21:13 EST, you write: << There is a point out there that most of you would never question. That the 2 lb blue extruded polystyrene foam can vary to about 1.5 to 3 lbs per square foot. Dow produces this foam for the building industry and to float docks. Not AIRPLANES!!! The weights seam to vary wildly from truckload to truckload. In the 16 years I have worked in foam, I have seen at least 6 different foam cells in the same style of foam. The blowing agent has been changed over the years because of the CFC's. >> Have you see what Europa does with their pre-cut wing cores? They cut out squarish sections of the foam from slits in the bottom to make the cores lighter. They leave sections of foam between the holes for some crush resisitance. Extra hot wire cutting just what everyone wants!! From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com (Garfield) Subject: Re: COZY: Weight of Wings/Winglets Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:55:43 GMT Organization: Pilgrim House On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:17:08 -0500, Nigel Field wrote: >At 11:53 AM 11/21/96 EST, Marc wrote re wing weights: > >Just went and weighed my MK III wing parts. I think they are virtually = the >same as the MK IV except for the TE kink, at least can't see any other >difference and have both plans. > >Wings complete with ailerons on and all linkage hardware but not micro >filled 55 and 54 lbs. Ailerons alone are 7 lbs, a lot of that is = balance >weight. Very USEFUL info, all. Thanks. I'm vacuum bagging my Cozy assemblies, and am experimenting with a technique mentioned here earlier where you use mylar & primer to prepare the surface, to reduce fill/sanding, and am VERY interested in weight figures. Could people say if their weights are with atmospheric layup or with vacuum. Thanks. Garfield Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:32:53 -0500 From: Nigel Field Subject: Re: COZY: Weight of Wings/Winglets At 06:03 PM 11/21/96 -0500, CCady@aol.com wrote: >Have you see what Europa does with their pre-cut wing cores? They cut out >squarish sections of the foam from slits in the bottom to make the cores >lighter. >They leave sections of foam between the holes for some crush resisitance. > I didn't know they did that but had thought about trying it but didn't. Was concerned about all that air sealed up in there at sea level pressure, then a climb to 10k and BOOM!! what the ........? awe sh.., Mayday, Mayday... Comments?? Nigel Date: 21 Nov 96 23:04:56 EST From: INFINITY Aerospace <72124.347@compuserve.com> Subject: COZY: Hollow Wing Cores Hi All, >Cliff Cady wrote (Hi Cliff): >Have you see what Europa does with their pre-cut wing cores? They cut out squarish sections of the foam from slits in the bottom to make the cores lighter. They leave sections of foam between the holes for some crush resisitance.< >Nigel Field wrote (Hi Nigel): >I didn't know they did that but had thought about trying it but didn't. Was concerned about all that air sealed up in there at sea level pressure, then a climb to 10k and BOOM!! what the ........? awe sh.., Mayday, Mayday... Comments??< I've seen how Europa does this with Cliff. Really slick ! Just have vent holes at one end of the wing foam cores to the outside, like at the strake wing juncture on the front of the wing "C" spar, and into the cowling on the back side. The wall thickness of the foam remaining after the excess foam plugs are removed are still thick. If you get a chance to look how Europa does it, this will answer all questions. Some forthought and planning will obviously have to be done. HTH. Infinity's Forever, JD Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:21:06 -0800 From: berkut@loop.com Subject: Re: COZY: Weight of Wings/Winglets >My personal belief (from examining the AeroCad pre-molded spars) is that >the use of the Bi-Axial and Tri-Axial cloth in the manufacturing of these >spars leads to the use of a lot more epoxy than would otherwise be the >case if straight UNI and BID were used. I say this because the Bi and >Tri seem to have a LOT more air space within each layer and between each >layer, and the spars seemed to have many large air voids in them that >were filled with epoxy during the molding of the spars. Given that my >weights are slightly lower than Jeff's, and I used UNI on the wing skins >instead of Tri-Axial cloth, I think my hypothesis is at least marginally >supported by facts. > > We use bi-ax in our molded fuselage, with uni running lengthwise as the outside plies, but only under a vac bag. We experimented with bi and tri in a non-bagged layup and you're correct, it takes a LOT of resin to displace the air. -- Czech Sikhs! Richard Riley "The important things are always simple. The simple things are always hard." See the Berkut at http://www.berkut.com Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:15:25 -0800 From: Chris van Hoof Organization: C van Hoof - Architect Subject: Re: COZY: Weight of Wings/Winglets > concerned about all that air sealed up in there at sea level pressure, then > Hi all, Just me with an opinion (0,02c). Around here they (all composite builders) advise each other while building to drill a small hole (1/16) in each part after finishing. Those who did not drill before testflying did so during because the delamination showed up real fast. chris #219