From: Rafael Bello Subject: materials info Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 22:47:34 +0100 (MET) Hi everybody, I got the plans yesterday :-) and after spending the whole day and a bit of the night by reading the chapters 1,2 and 3 chapters twice, I decided the first thing to do was to locate the materials. I searched a few places here around for styrofoam a few weeks ago, to be ready to start when the plans arrived. And I have found following materials: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** extruded polyestyrene (Styrofoam) ** Styrodour 3035 S (from BASF) Density: 33 kg/m^3 == 2 lb/ft^3 Min. compr. strength (for 10% strain): 0.3 N/mm^2 == 43.5 psi Flexural E modulus: 10 N/mm^2 == 1450 psi Flexural strength: 0.5 N/mm^2 == 72.5 psi Styrodour 5000 S (from BASF) Density: 45 N/mm^3 == 3 lb/ft^3 Min. compr. strength (for 10% strain): 0.6 N/mm^2 == 87 psi (I haven't got the rest of the values yet) It is used for thermal isolation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** epoxy ** I have searched for cold-curing epoxy laminating resins: a) From Ciba-Geigy Araldite LY 5052 (resin) & Hardener HY 5052 (hardener) They claim: Application: Aircraft (Meets the approval conditions for gliders of the Deutschen Luffahrt-Bundesamt - LBA) Vehicles/Boats Sport equipments Industrial components Processing: Wet lay-up Mix ratio: 62% Resin - 40% Hardener If the resin has cured for 7 days at room temperature 25 C == 77 F * Tensile test: - Tensile strength: 49-71 N/mm^2 == 7106-10298 psi - Strain at tensile strength %: 1.5-2.5 - Tensile stress at rupture: 49-71 N/mm^2 == 7106-10298 psi - Strain at rupture: 1.5-2.5 - Tensile modulus: 3350-3550 N/mm^2 == 485880-514888 psi If the resin has cured for 15 hours at 50 C == 122 F *Tensile test: - Tensile strength: 82-86 N/mm^2 == 11893-12473 psi - Strain at tensile strength %: 3.1-3.7 - Tensile stress at rupture: 80-83 N/mm^2 == 11603-12038 psi - Strain at rupture: 3.5-5.5 - Tensile modulus: 3450-3650 N/mm^2 == 500384-529392 psi * Flexural test: - Flexural strength: 126-128 N/mm^2 == 18274-18564 psi - Surface strain/elongation %: 6.0-6.3 - Break resistance: 89-104 N/mm^2 == 12908-15084 psi - Surface strain at failure %: 9.4-11.1 - Flexural modulus: 2950-3000 N/mm^2 == 427864-435116 psi Price: -Resin: $27 per gallon -Hardener: $220 per gallon!!!!! b) From Raisa (spanish manufacturer) Eporai - 815/A (resin) & Hardener - 450/B (hardener) They claim: Application: Aeronautical layups (they say it is being used in the Airbus A320) Mix ratio: 83% Resin - 17% Hardener They say the proccess can be accelerated by postcuring the layups, but the final strength is approximately the same as curing at room temp. They have done the tests with a postcuring proccess at 60 C == 140 F - Compression strength: 70-85 N/mm^2 == 10152-12328 psi - Flexo-tensile strength: 50-60 N/mm^2 == 7251-8702 psi Price: -Resin: $26 per gallon Hardener: $55 per gallon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know it was hard to read all this stuff, but if you came up to here, perhaps you can tell me if they are OK compared with DOW Chemicals Styrofoam and the Hexcel 2427 resin. I have no access to the mechanical properties of those materials, so I have to find a replacement, as it is too expensive to import them from the US. I would like to know also the surface density of the UNI and BID glass cloths, and mechanical properties if possible. Thanks a lot Rafa Bello Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:47:26 -0500 From: KSPREUER@aol.com Subject: Re: materials info In a message dated 96-02-09 17:23:40 EST, Rafa writes (excerpts): >Subj: materials info >Date: 96-02-09 17:23:40 EST >From: rafa@asterix.cps.unizar.es (Rafael Bello) >I would like to know also the surface density of the UNI and BID glass >cloths, and mechanical properties if possible. > >Thanks a lot > Rafa Bello > Welcome to the group. I doubt you will get much help on this subject since most of us are building in the US and haven't look into alternates much. I would suggest that you contact Uli Walters in Germany. He is the guy that started Cosy Europe. I imagine he has tackled this problem. I can't find his address at the moment. I know it was in an old newsletter. The best way may be to ask Nat for his address. I'm sure he would be helpful in this matter. Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 09:29:24 -0500 From: Nigel Field Subject: Materials At 10:47 PM 2/9/96 +0100, you wrote: >Hi everybody, > >I got the plans yesterday :-) > > >and after spending the whole day and a bit of the night by reading the >chapters 1,2 and 3 chapters twice, I decided the first thing to do was to >locate the materials. I searched a few places here around for styrofoam a >few weeks ago, to be ready to start when the plans arrived. And I have found >following materials: >............deleted for brevity........... >I know it was hard to read all this stuff, but if you came up to here, >perhaps you can tell me if they are OK compared with DOW Chemicals >Styrofoam and the Hexcel 2427 resin. I have no access to the mechanical >properties of those materials, so I have to find a replacement, as it is too >expensive to import them from the US. > >I would like to know also the surface density of the UNI and BID glass >cloths, and mechanical properties if possible. > >Thanks a lot > Rafa Bello > >Rafa, Welcome to the start of a rewarding experience, that of building your own aircraft. I offer the following data for comparison. It comes directly from the manufacturers spec sheet for PR2032 Aeropoxy resin. The company rep told me that it is used by Burt Rutan at scaled composites. I have just started using this product with PH3417 hardner and am very pleased with it, no surprizes so far. I cannot verify the accuracy of this data, perhaps someone else could comment if they have used it. Hardner PH3417 Ph3660 PH3662 Mixed Viscosity cps @ 77F 1500 1400 1300-1400 Pot life 4oz (minutes) 25-30 85-90 120-180 Cured Hardness Shore D 1.13-1.14 1.10-1.11 1.11-1.115 Tensile Strength psi cast sample 10,200 9,400 9,720 Tensile Modulus psi cast sample 465,000 450,000 378,170 Flexural strength 2" cast sample 15,700 12,700 15,039 Flexural Modulus cast sample 706,000 698,000 658,879 Compressive strength psi 14,200 13,260 12,890 Compressive modulus psi 627,000 578,000 562,143 Regret I dont have the data on foam or glass, I hope this is some help. Nigel Field Cozy III Hi Nigel, Your data has been very useful. Now I know the range in which the technical properties from the epoxy has to be. As far as I can see in your address, you are canadian, and I think this epoxy will not be distributed in Europe. I will look for an european manufacturer that meets the specs. Thank you Rafa Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 20:15:25 +0100 From: Niels Oestergaard Kjaer Subject: UND&BID Europe Hello Rafa. Uli Cosy Europe Ahornstr. 10 D-86510 Ried Tel: +49 8233 60594 Fax: +49 8233 20150 Uli knows what epoxy to use, and where to get the glasfiber, it is = manufactured in England via a german compagny. We buy the glasfiber from this compagny, but always groupwise so I don=B4= t = know the address. = The epoxy and resin we buy here in Denmark, it is special made for = homebuilders designed by a danish homebuilder, but Uli has worked a lot = with finding a good epoxy for homebuilders in south and middle europe. Your mail host bounches a lot, so I'm sending this message via the = mailinglist. Niels DK Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 10:18:47 -0700 (MST) From: "aka Mr. Radon" Subject: Re: materials info On Fri, 9 Feb 1996, Rafael Bello wrote: > ** extruded polyestyrene (Styrofoam) ** > > Styrodour 3035 S (from BASF) > > Density: 33 kg/m^3 == 2 lb/ft^3 > Min. compr. strength > (for 10% strain): 0.3 N/mm^2 == 43.5 psi > > Flexural E modulus: 10 N/mm^2 == 1450 psi > Flexural strength: 0.5 N/mm^2 == 72.5 psi > > Styrodour 5000 S (from BASF) > Density: 45 N/mm^3 == 3 lb/ft^3 > Min. compr. strength > (for 10% strain): 0.6 N/mm^2 == 87 psi > (I haven't got the rest of the values yet) > > It is used for thermal isolation. > We, on the Go-four project have used the blue extruded foam for our wing hot wire cuts. We did not purchase the foam via Aircraft Spruce as we did for other types of foam. Our proffesor has no problems using this foam, since it is almost exactly, except for cell size, the same as what ASS sells. As to other items, I can't respond. ============================================================================= Roy H. Grossinger- ME grossinr@rastro.colorado.edu Cozy Mk IV #503; Chapter 4 ROY_GROSSINGER@Radon-hq.ccmail.compuserve.com CU's Go - 4; Hull Layup "A man's destiny is his character" | ___ | |---------(>-<)---------| / ~~~ \ o/ \o Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 07:51:23 -0500 From: tims@enet.net (Tim Sullivan) Subject: COZY: fwd:: help please :-) >Hi Tim! > >I hope you remember me. I am the spanish guy you sent the INU and BID cloths >for a couple of months. I have been able inbetween to find two sources of >fiberglass here in Europe. The pieces you sent me allowed me to see the >texture and the approximate density. As the scraps are too small to achieve >an accurate measure, I just wanted to ask you if you know the density of the >cloths. I think you receive from Wicks or Spruce the cloth in 38" wide >rolls. I looked at a Spruce Catalog and I found some uncomplete data. >My question is if the density is 7 oz./sq. Yd. for the RA5177 UND and >8.8 oz./sq. Yd. for the RA5277 BID, or 7 oz. and 8.8 oz. the yard of cloth >with a width of 38". The difference is about a 10% heavier for the 2nd. >possibility. So if you know the answer or you can weigh a sq. Yd. or a whole >100 Yd. roll, it would be very helpful. > >Hope you can help me > Thans in advance > Rafael Bello Can anyone help with this information and forward it to Rafael. Tim Sullivan (tims@enet.net) Phoenix, AZ | * | Cozy MK IV Builder #470 |-----(/)-----| The journey begins 8/10/95 / \ Current Status: Ch 9 o o Date: Fri, 03 May 96 13:20:39 EST From: MISTER@neesnet.com Subject: Re: COZY: fwd:: help please :-) Rafael Bello wrote >>I just wanted to ask you if you know the density of the >cloths. I think you receive from Wicks or Spruce the cloth in 38" wide >rolls. I looked at a Spruce Catalog and I found some uncomplete data. >My question is if the density is 7 oz./sq. Yd. for the RA5177 UND and >8.8 oz./sq. Yd. for the RA5277 BID, or 7 oz. and 8.8 oz. the yard of cloth >with a width of 38". The difference is about a 10% heavier for the 2nd. >possibility. So if you know the answer or you can weigh a sq. Yd. or a whole >100 Yd. roll, it would be very helpful.<< On Page 128 in the 1996 Wicks catalog, there is the following info for E-Glass: UNI Cloth : Style 7715 7.2 oz/ sq yd width 38" thickness 0.0095" tensile strngth 500 x 56 Part no. RA5177 BID Cloth : Style 7725 8.9 oz/sq yd width 38" thickness 0.0125" tensile strngth 400 x 335 Part No. RA5277 Hope this helps. Bob Misterka N342RM Date: 12 Jul 96 01:03:25 EDT From: Keith Barr <100444.3407@compuserve.com> Subject: COZY: Epoxy/Glass Compatibility I'm trying to get started on a Cozy IV here in the Netherlands. I've received some materials (foam and glass) from Wicks but can't get epoxy shipped outside the US as the hardener is considered hazardous material. I can get Safe-T-Poxy from a Spruce & Specialty office in the UK, when they have it in stock (maybe by August or September). I'm new to the glassing game so I'm trying to get up to speed on the real issues. There's a lot of good info (okay, maybe some not so good too) in this forum. I have some glass from Wicks (RA5277, etc) and have found an epoxy source here in Europe. Uli Wolter uses a company in Germany for glass and epoxy which will ship to the Netherlands. Their materials are used in sailplane manufacturing and Uli indicated he has had good results. Their glass is a bit heavier than the RA stuff and I'm wondering if there's any problem using their epoxy with the RA glasses? I'd like to have the lightest structure possible but want to make sure the pieces fly together when(if) they fly. Keith Barr keith@nl.sykes.com Mk IV #489 From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Epoxy/Glass Compatibility (fwd) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 96 8:52:48 EDT Keith Barr writes: >...... I'm wondering if there's any problem using their epoxy with the >RA glasses? Given the wide range of epoxies and glasses that are used together to build all sorts of glass airplanes, it's difficult to imagine a combination that wouldn't work together (from the standpoint of curing, anyway). If the epoxy you're considering is used for airplanes in Europe, and it's a laminating resin that will wet the glass and bond to subsequent layups, I'd think it would work fine. There's nothing special about the RAE spec. glass other than the # of fibers in each direction and their size, right? -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 09:41:23 -0700 From: Chris van Hoof Organization: C van Hoof - Architect Subject: COZY: Materials Hello Bernard and welcome, You mentioned that you will be ordering materials soon. Some time ago (see Archive) a Chap from the Netherlands wrote that it was difficult to obtain Epoxy from USA (hazardous substance etc,etc), just for interest, the epoxy I use is called 2022 and is obtained from Hexcell France, (Some boxes say "Axson") maybe if you investigate you could save some money? This is used in glider building, and they will provide you with Specification sheets for comparison purposes. Enjoy, chris #219 in my playbox with Cozy in chapter 07 cvh@iafrice.com