From: Lee Devlin Subject: Peel-plying everthing... Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 14:20:52 MST I was wondering about the collective wisdom of peel-plying everything. Someone published this tip in the Cozy newsletter a while ago saying that you can save significant finishing labor by peel-plying everything. Nat admitted that the plans verification Cozy was also extensively peel-plied. In the 'Building the Rutan Composites' video, peel ply is only applied to the areas where another layup will occur to avoid having the weave filled with the heavier pure epoxy. I am a little curious how difficult it would be to peel a giant sheet of peel ply fabric off of a cured layup. The narrow strip looks easy, but I'm not sure about several square feet of peel ply. And, is there a significant penalty with filling the weave with pure epoxy or corresponding labor reduction in finishing time? Lee leed@gr.hp.com From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Peel-plying everthing... Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 17:02:28 EST Lee; >I was wondering about the collective wisdom of peel-plying everything. >Someone published this tip in the Cozy newsletter a while ago saying >that you can save significant finishing labor by peel-plying everything. >Nat admitted that the plans verification Cozy was also extensively >peel-plied. >In the 'Building the Rutan Composites' video, peel ply is only applied >to the areas where another layup will occur to avoid having the weave >filled with the heavier pure epoxy. >I am a little curious how difficult it would be to peel a giant sheet of >peel ply fabric off of a cured layup. The narrow strip looks easy, but >I'm not sure about several square feet of peel ply. And, is there a >significant penalty with filling the weave with pure epoxy or >corresponding labor reduction in finishing time? When building my Q2, I only peel-ply'ed those areas which the plans said would be layed up again. I found myself doing a LOT of sanding later, as unplanned layups occurred, I hadn't peel ply'ed a quite large enough area, or some other reason. For the Cozy, I've determined to peel ply the whole thing. The first few layups on the bulkheads have gone well - there was no problem pulling the peel ply off the whole seatback bulkhead (they don't get much bigger than that). The decrease in finishing time (I've found) to be huge - no sanding at all vs. a LOT of sanding (and the concomitant dust, cleanup, etc.). As far as weight goes, I don't put any extra epoxy on due to the peel ply; I do the last layup, roller it to squeeze the epoxy up from the lower layers, put on just enough epoxy to finish wetting the layup, and then put on the peel ply and roller it down. I generally get 95-100% epoxy coverage on the peel ply. Unless someone can give me hard numbers showing a greater than 2% difference in weight (20 lbs. on a 1000 lbs. aircraft) or else tell me what I'm doing wrong in my layup technique that lets me not use extra epoxy for the peel ply, I will use this technique throughout. -- Marc J. Zeitlin E-Mail: marcz@an.hp.com (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA21274; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:10:15 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:10:15 -0500 From: Ewestland@aol.com Subject: Re: Peel-plying everthing... Forgive me as I fumble my way through this internet, sending multiple duplicate messages. I responded to a posting from Marc (?) last night, but it got returned by AOL for some reason, so I will just send this another way with my thoughts on peel plying. I wrote last night: Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 23:44:00 -0500 From: Ewestland@aol.com Subject: Re: Peel-plying everthing... Sounds good to me. I generally peel ply everything that I can. I generally use your technique, although on larger layups I sometimes need to add a little epoxy while using the hair dryer to get it wet out enough. I also peel ply as I go along, not waiting until the end of the layup. As for the peel ply, get the stuff Alexander sells by the yard (it's about 45" wide). It is the cheapest I have found and lays out really nice, especially on curves. I still use the tape on trailing edges or other places where I need a straight line. One last thought : Last summer when Nat was looking at my wings, the first thing he asked was "why did you not peel ply the first wing?". I had not because the lay ups were quite long. I did on the second one as my lay up speed increased and I am glad I did. Pulling a large sheet off is not hard at all, at least with the Alexander material. I suppose that some of the weave is filled with heavier epoxy, but since the peel ply "flattens out" the weave, the "holes" are much smaller. You would also need less fill later, save time later not having to sand (I don't know anyone that enjoys this) and you do not need to sand into the glass, possibly weakening it, to remove all the shininess (sp.?) to acheive a good bond. Ask 10 builders and you will get 10 good opinions, this is mine. Eric Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 9:39:01 EST Subject: Re: Cozy MK IV Marty, >.......... However I am interested in being put on your list. Done. You should start receiving mail from the list soon (like right after this). To send mail to everyone on the list, send it to: cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com I'm on the list, so you don't have to cc: me. >As far as putting the four layers of cloth over the longerons, good >luck. Mine came out fine with continually checking the layup each hour >until it curred. The double longerons are not perfect. There are just >too many complex angles. I repeatedly pushed the cloth in place. I plan >to just fill any bubbles with resin. O.K. That's what I figured. >I am peel plying everything I do. It has already saved some time. It >also puts a nice finish to the inside. I've done the same. I find that I have to be very careful to completely wet out the peel ply, because if I get air bubbles, they wick epoxy up and I get a dry spot with epoxy walls around it. Then I need to sand a bit. >My 5 year old son is working with me on this project. In addition to >building the Cozy I have built two spaceships, a 6 car train, a truck or >two, and some other miscellaneous toys. He really enjoys working on his >project while I work on mine. You've been more productive than I. I end up 5-min. epoxying wooden guns together and clearing foam dust from my son's sawing activity. Then we go toss a football or play nintendo. Still, I'd rather have it this way. -- Marc J. Zeitlin E-Mail: marcz@an.hp.com From: Lee Devlin Subject: Peel ply revisited Date: Thu, 4 May 95 12:40:04 MDT I have been using Alexander $2.25/yd peel-ply over everything as recommended in one of the Cozy newsletters as a way to reduce finishing time. It makes the weave lay down and thus produces a much smoother surface but I am wondering how much weight I am adding to the airframe. I've noticed that, if the layup has the proper amount of epoxy in it, then laying the peel-ply over it will leave small air voids under the peel-ply on the top surface of the fiberglass since there's not enough to wet out the peel-ply and fill the voids. I don't think this affects the strength of the finished part, since the voids are on the surface of the glass just under the peel ply. But this defeats the purpose of the peel-ply from the standpoint of not having to sand shiny portions of the epoxy surface. These small shiny surfaces are on the cloth and hiding under the void so technically I would still have to sand them down to assure good adhesion of mating parts (I assume). My solution is to add extra epoxy on top of the peel-ply and then squeegy lightly. This epoxy fills the air voids in the fiberglass weave below. If I squeegy too hard, the surface voids come back because the epoxy gets extruded out to the edge. What is the collective wisdom on this? It's hard for me to estimate how much weight this adds but I assume it is offset somewhat by requiring less filling. Has anyone else noticed the surface voids under the peel ply? If so, what do you feel should be done about them? Thanks, Lee Devlin Date: Thu, 4 May 95 15:32:59 EDT Subject: Peel ply revisited (fwd) Lee D. writes: > >I have been using Alexander $2.25/yd peel-ply over everything as >recommended in one of the Cozy newsletters as a way to reduce finishing >time. It makes the weave lay down and thus produces a much smoother >surface but I am wondering how much weight I am adding to the airframe. >I've noticed that, if the layup has the proper amount of epoxy in it, >then laying the peel-ply over it will leave small air voids under the >peel-ply on the top surface of the fiberglass since there's not enough >to wet out the peel-ply and fill the voids. I don't think this affects >the strength of the finished part, since the voids are on the surface of >the glass just under the peel ply. But this defeats the purpose of >the peel-ply from the standpoint of not having to sand shiny portions of >the epoxy surface. These small shiny surfaces are on the cloth and hiding >under the void so technically I would still have to sand them down to >assure good adhesion of mating parts (I assume). Yup. The bulk PP seems to have less of a tendency to do this than the thicker strips, and is a lot cheaper. It's a little harder to remove, but not much. >My solution is to add extra epoxy on top of the peel-ply and then >squeegy lightly. This epoxy fills the air voids in the fiberglass >weave below. If I squeegy too hard, the surface voids come back because >the epoxy gets extruded out to the edge. Same here - you don't need to add very much epoxy at all - I find that a VERY light brushing over the peel-ply with an epoxy paintbrush is more than enough to fill the weave. >What is the collective wisdom on this? It's hard for me to estimate how >much weight this adds but I assume it is offset somewhat by requiring >less filling. Has anyone else noticed the surface voids under the peel >ply? If so, what do you feel should be done about them? I think you've got the same answer I do. I use the peel-ply to save time, and as stated before, I think the weight gain is negligible, if any. -- Marc J. Zeitlin E-Mail: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 16:16:08 -0400 From: SidLloyd@aol.com Subject: Re: Peel ply revisited (fwd) Use a hair-dryer to wet-out the peel-ply. I think (personal belief here after going through the Alexander Aeroplane course) that we use too much epoxy. Try a 1 to 1 ratio of epoxy to fiberglass cloth by weight on some test layups with peel ply. You'll be surprised at how little epoxy is needed. Then do some peel strength tests. Should be the same as if it was soggy with epoxy. We tried this at the glass. This will save you many pounds of epoxy. While you can't always weigh your epoxy and cloth, do it as much as possible until you get to know how much (or little) is actually needed. Sid From: Lee Devlin Subject: Re: Peel ply revisited (fwd) Date: Thu, 4 May 95 15:10:38 MDT Sid wrote: > Use a hair-dryer to wet-out the peel-ply. I think (personal belief here > after going through the Alexander Aeroplane course) that we use too much > epoxy. Try a 1 to 1 ratio of epoxy to fiberglass cloth by weight on some > test layups with peel ply. You'll be surprised at how little epoxy is > needed. Then do some peel strength tests. Should be the same as if it was > soggy with epoxy. We tried this at the glass. This will save you many pounds > of epoxy. While you can't always weigh your epoxy and cloth, do it as much > as possible until you get to know how much (or little) is actually needed. I always use a hairdryer to wet the peel-ply, and I also make sure to wet at least 1/4" of glass that hangs over the edge of the part so that it will knife trim properly. I can't use a squeegy properly on the glass that hangs over the edge, so that stuff gets pretty wet. But that's OK since it gets cut off anyway. I've been to Alexander's demo at Oshkosh for the last few years and have seen Stan Montgomery in action. I know that he's an advocate of weighing the glass and adding a 1:1 ratio of epoxy, but most of my layups have so far had a lot of empty space (like the leg holes instrument panel, and f22), and I generally leave about a 2" margin all around a part when I cut out the glass. This would make it impractical to weigh the glass since a good portion of it doesn't get wet out. Someday, if I get really bored, I may sit down and calculate the optimal weight of the bulkheads since I have the templates on my CAD system and can compute the areas pretty easily and know the foam density, the cloth weight per yard, and can get the density of the epoxy. On second thought, maybe I really don't want to know :-). Lee Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 00:51:28 -0400 From: StetsonE@aol.com Subject: Re: Peel ply revisited On 4 May, Lee Devlin wrote: >I have been using Alexander $2.25/yd peel-ply over everything as >recommended in one of the Cozy newsletters as a way to reduce finishing >time. It makes the weave lay down and thus produces a much smoother >surface but I am wondering how much weight I am adding to the airframe. >What is the collective wisdom on this? It's hard for me to estimate how >much weight this adds but I assume it is offset somewhat by requiring >less filling. Has anyone else noticed the surface voids under the peel >ply? If so, what do you feel should be done about them? > >Thanks, > I'm a Long-EZ builder. I don't get Nat's newsletters, so I don't know what was he previously said on this subject. Burt Rutan discussed it in his Canard Pusher newsletter many years ago, and said: >From CP27, page 5, Jan 1981 "Do not use peel ply over the entire structure. This starves epoxy from lower foam surface, makes inspection difficult, gives an erroneous impression of good surface smoothness, makes it easy to unknowingly damage structure during finishing and adds weight. For example - if the elevators are peel-plied they will be too heavy to balance and must be discarded. Do peel ply surface edges of glass plys whenever they exist and, of course, whenever a layup will be later made over a cured surface." I don't go along with everything he's said, however. Using peel ply won't starve epoxy from the layup if you add enough epoxy to properly wet out the peel ply. As to damaging structure during finishing - you can easily see if you're sanding into epoxy as opposed to glass, so no problem there. I do agree that it adds unnecessary weight though. What you're doing is filling the weave with pure epoxy, whereas if you later filled the weave with micro during finishing, you're bound to end up with a lighter finish. How much though is the big question. True, doing it Rutan's way you'll have to scuff sand the rough glass surface in preparation for the micro fill, and that's definitely a chore, but the whole finishing process is a chore anyway. Adding 5-6 hours to the total finishing job is insignificant compared to the 150 (or more) hours you'll be sanding, whichever technique you use. I don't think peel ply will give you the absolute straight surface you'll want prior to painting, so you'll probably still have to do micro fill and alot of sanding even if you peel ply the whole surface. I always get a somewhat wavy surface everytime I use peel ply. An alternative method that I heard about from Dave Ronneberg, of Berkut fame, is to do the layup as normal. But while the layup is still green _a little after knife trim stage_, slather on your West dry micro. Since the layup hasn't fully cured the West will chemically bond to the layup. This eliminates the need to scuff sand later. But again, this technique may be old news to Cozy builders. I would be interested to hear from someone who has used peel ply over the entire surface, and has finished their project. How much micro fill was necessary? How did the finish turn out? Anyway, I did it Rutan's way. I'm in the finishing stage now. For those of you who haven't got there yet, boy are you in for a treat! _sarcasm intended_ If anyone is curious about "Rutan's way" of doing something, let me know. I have the Long-EZ plans, of course. I also have every one of his newsletters on disk and can search the stuff fairly easily. Stet Elliott stetsone@aol.com Long-EZ builder Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 23:37:49 -0400 From: Marcnadine@aol.com Subject: Re: A better than peel ply fin There has been a lot of talk in the past few days about how to get the be= st glass finish. I would like to talk about a proven technique that I am now= using on my Cozy Mark IV. This technique is closely related to the metho= ds I have used building foam core fiberglass wings for many years on high-performance, remote control airplanes flown in national aerobatic contests. When I first started this project I was going to vacuum bag every part th= at I could fit into the bag. I have been vacuum bagging high performance mode= l aircraft parts for years and have found that the bagged parts come out mu= ch stronger and have a smooth final finish. When I called George at Aerospa= ce Composites, he informed me of a new material that would give me the resul= ts I was looking for. A new Perforated Release Film (mylar) can be applied ov= er the layup with just a squeegee. The perforated mylar compresses the fibe= rs, excess epoxy comes out the perforations and you end up with a glass smoot= h finish without drying out the layup. You=92ll also find that the perfora= ted mylar pulls off very easy, not at all like peel ply. You can also use th= e peel ply under the mylar without any problems. When you pull the mylar off all you have to do is lightly sand the finish= and you are ready for painting. = From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Don't do this!!! - (Peel Ply) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 95 12:02:06 EDT People; After performing another bonehead maneuver (no, my fingers are still intact), I figured I'd share my stupidity to ensure that you don't do the same thing. I was laying up the canard shear web on Wednesday night, and without a helper it took about 4-5 hours. It was about 80 degrees F in the basement, so by the time I finished the last glass layer, the first few layers of epoxy had gotten VERY tacky, and the peel ply wouldn't wet out. (near the ends of the web). So, I brilliantly painted a bit of epoxy on the outside of the peel-ply, which quickly wet it out, and made the peel ply look great. After peeling the peel-ply off on Friday night, to my horror I say HUGE areas that looked as though someone had been blowing air bubbles through my layups. My canard was RUINED!!! No - wait - it turns out that the epoxy painted peel-ply had let just enough epoxy through it to form a thin film on the inside, against the layup, and that after peeling the ply off, left a white, thin epoxy layer BARELY adhered to the surface. I spent 2 hours with a sharp 1 1/2" wood chisel carefully scraping this layer off. After this, I was able to examine the actual layup, and found it to be perfectly satisfactory. The lesson here - always put the epoxy on the inside of the peel-ply. (I then spent two hours sanding what would have been perfectly acceptable had I taken the time to do it right in the first place). Anyway, thanks for listening - hope this helps, and if you already knew this, I wish I had. -- Marc J. Zeitlin E-Mail: marcz@an.hp.com From: Lee Devlin Subject: Re: Don't do this!!! - (Peel Ply) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 95 13:29:55 MDT Hi Marc, > off on Friday night, to my horror I say HUGE areas that looked as though > someone had been blowing air bubbles through my layups. My canard was > RUINED!!! No - wait - it turns out that the epoxy painted peel-ply had > let just enough epoxy through it to form a thin film on the inside, > against the layup, and that after peeling the ply off, left a white, > thin epoxy layer BARELY adhered to the surface. I've run it this as well. If I get too enthusiastic with the squeegy, it creates the same problem. If I notice the fiberglass looking like cordouroy pattern through the peel-ply, I add more epoxy. Otherwise, I've found that I get a flakey white thin layer of epoxy over what is actually a good layup. However, this pretty much defeats the purpose of using peel-ply, i.e. being able to layup over a cured layup without having to sand it. Lee Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 00:33:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Tech Support - Rick Subject: Rolling resistance, and other fine problems To one and all, first, I am not yet an engineer. Second, I research entirely too much for my own good. As far as the tire issue goes, this effect was noticed by builders and pilots. Whether it should or not, I do not know. I suspect that it is because of the wider foot print of the tire. Next Point, someone else built my fuse, but they did about a 7 or 8 on a 10 scale. They made a common mistake I did on my first wing down at Sun 'n Fun 95. I added epoxy to peel ply to get it to wet out. This is ok to a point but my strake areas are a little over a 1/16" thick where I can not see the weave of the cloth underneath the epoxy. I corrected this by sanding wiht 50 grit(80 grit is the min for a good epoxy bond) emory cloth. Now I have the area back down where it is nice and useable again w/o ridges. The dust I took off weighs about a 1.5 pounds between two sides. Also, the sides of the fuse look smooth now w/o the micro. ;^) This little weight now may add up later in the build. Who knows I might be able to build my 3 under 900 lbs. =8^) Rick Crapse Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 15:13:39 -0500 From: Marcnadine@aol.com Subject: Re:1 Perforated Film >From: janef@montcalm.cc.mi.us (Jane Faussett) >I just read your information about using a perforated release film for >peelply. How is your project coming using the film. I'm building a Cozy >MK4 and am beginning to fiberglass the outside of the fuselage. So far I >haven't used peel ply over surfaces, only at the lap or corner of the >layups. Do you have Aerospace commposits phone# and address? I can't >find it in the Sport Aviation advertisers index. Also, how is the cost >in relation to the dacron fabric used for peelply? Does it lay down >easier that the dacron fabric? I'd appreciate hearing from you. >Thanks, Tom and Jane Faussett. I used the perforated film (from Alexander Aeroplane) on the fuse exterior, and It came out with a glass like finish. The film works great, It compresses the fibers and execess epoxy is pressed out the perforations. The only problem using the film is that you have to lightly sand the surface, vaccum, and sand again to remove a release from the surface left by the film. At Oshkosh this summer we attended a forum titled "Advanced Composit Aircraft Construction" by Gordon Bowen (Techincal Advisor for Hexcel Epoxy System). Gordon is also building a Cozy MarkIV and recomends using Peel Ply on EVERTHING. I am now buying it by it in 66" wide rolls. It gives you a great finnish ready to prime with out having to sand. I started out doing it the way the book tells you to, and after comparing it with a finnish treated with the perforated film or peel ply I would not go back. The un-treated surface needs a lot of filling and sanding. Marc N425CZ From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Re:1 Perforated Film (fwd) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 95 9:34:40 EST Marc Parmalee wrote: >I used the perforated film (from Alexander Aeroplane) on the fuse exterior, >and It came out with a glass like finish. The film works great, It >compresses the fibers and execess epoxy is pressed out the perforations. The >only problem using the film is that you have to lightly sand the surface, >vaccum, and sand again to remove a release from the surface left by the film. After visiting Marc and seeing the results of the perf. film, I've got to say that I don't think I'd use it. While it does give a glass smooth finish, I don't know why I'd want that - you just have to sand the crap out of it afterwards to get the film off and get anything to stick to it. Also, I'd guess (and it's JUST a guess) that the epoxy necessary to fill the surface smooth like that is heavier than what you would end up with from just peel-plying. I'd recommend just the peel ply with a hair dryer and a squeegee - I can get my layups way too dry with this method :-) - I can't imagine taking out any more epoxy safely. >....... Gordon is also building a Cozy MarkIV and recomends using Peel Ply >on EVERTHING. I am now buying it by it in 66" wide rolls. It gives you a >great finnish ready to prime with out having to sand. I second this completely - peel ply everything you can. Alexander sells the wide peel ply. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 11:48:00 -0500 From: Dick.Finn@FNB.sprint.com Subject: Re[2]: 1 Perforated Film (fwd) Marc Parmalee wrote: >.... .. Gordon is also building a Cozy MarkIV and recomends using Peel Ply >on EVERTHING. I am now buying it by it in 66" wide rolls. It gives you a >great finnish ready to prime with out having to sand. Marc Added: >I second this completely - peel ply everything you can. Alexander sells >the wide peel ply. I also peel ply most everything (not quite but almost). I use a cheap fabric purchased off the remnant table at the local fabric store. I grab anything that is man made (polyester). The stuff is dirt cheap (sometimes as litttle as $.50 yard). It peels off with a little more difficulty then standard peel ply but other then that works great. Another drawback is that with the loud prints it sometimes looks as if the plane is wearing a Hawaian shirt. Dick Finn BTW -- is there some standard (read easy) way to put the little greater then signs in to indicate something is copied???? Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 09:30:06 -0800 From: brimmer@ix.netcom.com (Kenneth Brimmer ) Subject: Re:1 Perforated Film (fwd) Gentlemen, I was talked into peelplying everything by one of the Alex. Aero. group and my body came out 10 lbs heaver than the other three COZY's building in my area. It looked great but if you think about it the pure resen filling the weave surface is a lot heaver than the micro mixture. Not only that but the Navy did some tests that showed that sanding made a stronger bond than peel ply. For what it's worth. Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 10:37:29 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Westland Subject: Re:1 Perforated Film (fwd) On Mon, 27 Nov 1995, Marc J. Zeitlin wrote: > > >....... Gordon is also building a Cozy MarkIV and recomends using Peel Ply > >on EVERTHING. I am now buying it by it in 66" wide rolls. It gives you a > >great finnish ready to prime with out having to sand. > > I second this completely - peel ply everything you can. Alexander sells > the wide peel ply. > > -- > Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com > The last time I oredered peel ply from Alexander, it was a fine weave that laid out really well. I believe it was 1.8 oz. cloth. ACS sells 2.? cloth for a little less, but it would not contour as well. ACS does have the 1.8 oz. cloth, but does not market it as "peel ply". I called Alexander wondering if the 1.8 oz would leave too-smooth a surface for later bonding, but they were not sure. Did Gordon or does anyone know if the 1.8 oz. cloth is fine for doing additional lay-ups without sanding? Eric Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 13:03:37 -0600 From: Scott Mandel Subject: Peel Ply X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII There's been allot of exchange about peel ply. When I went to see Nat he said, one could use just about any nylon cloth as peel ply just test it first. I found using uncolored cloth from the local fabric store works great. The glass comes out smooth, with a hair dryer it soaks up plenty of epoxy, it comes off really easily, it molds to the corners better than glass, it's easy to find, and it's really cheap. From: Lee Devlin Subject: Re: Peel Ply Date: Mon, 27 Nov 95 17:51:09 MST I'd have to second Nick's advice on buying only peel ply from the suppliers. In this case, it's Alexander as I don't know any other supplier that sells it in 48" wide rolls. It's only $2.25/linear yd which is hard to beat even on close-outs in a fabric store. I'd purchased several rolls of the peel ply tapes before I knew what I was doing. The tapes are relatively expensive (per square yard) and, if you have the right tool, you can cut your own strips from the fabric with very little trouble. For doing corner tapes, I generally cut them ~3-4" wide using a little pair of battery-powered scissors made by Black & Decker called SnipEZs. I bought the scissors for $2.50 on sale and I think they generally retail for about $5. They cut cleanly and you can cut it with one hand. My regular scissors always left jagged raggy edges on the peel ply. As far as sanding, it's much easier to scuff the peel plied areas than areas which have not had peel ply. The reason for this is that you have to sand off all of the _shiny_ parts of the epoxy. To do this on an area which has not had peel ply, you must sand off the top of the weave to get down into the crannies between the tops. This requires a lot of sanding and you end up cutting through a significant number of fibers in the process. With peel ply, the surface is much flatter and thus doesn't take much to get all of the surface scuffed. Lee Devlin Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 23:33:45 -0500 From: JHocut@aol.com Subject: Re: Peel Ply "Peel Ply" is nothing more than polyester lining material found at most any fabric store. HOWEVER, my supply got dangerously low a couple of weeks ago, so I had to visit the local fabric store (talk about a fish out of water !), lo and behold Alexander's price is less than the fabric store's by a good margin. Jim Hocut jhocut@aol.com Tue, 28 Nov 1995 09:36:34 +1000 Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 09:27:20 +0200 From: parkyn@citr.uq.oz.au (Nick Parkyn) Subject: Re: Peel Ply Scott Mandel wrote: >There's been allot of exchange about peel ply. When I went to see Nat he said, >one could use just about any nylon cloth as peel ply just test it first. I >found using uncolored cloth from the local fabric store works great. The glass >comes out smooth, with a hair dryer it soaks up plenty of epoxy, it comes off >really easily, it molds to the corners better than glass, it's easy to find, >and it's really cheap. BE REALLY CAREFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In the boatbuilding industry there have been some problems where people have been using "ANY FABRIC" as peel ply. Some of these fabrics may be treated with silicons or other substances which are transferred to the laminate surface. This makes secondary bonds totally unreliable - your local fabric store would not know if silicon or other treatment has been used. There have been a number of secondary bond failures on "peel plied" surfaces in the marine industry which have been attributed to this. This has been written about by some of the best marine designers and has been featured recently in most of the marine journals. If you really want to use "any fabric" as "peel ply" you must test secondary bond strength - my suggestion is to use the "real thing" - it is really not that much more expensive! Many composite fabricators suggest light sanding of peel plied surfaces before secondary bonding - I believe Roy Bailets also does. Could someone please forward this text to Nat - it will be quicker than me posting a copy to him. Nick Parkyn #0020 Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 17:24:16 -0500 From: JHocut@aol.com Subject: Re: Peel Ply Regarding my previous post to the effect that peel-ply was the same as polyster lining fabric from a fabric store, I had posted that before receiving the message about silicone treatments. I'm convinced, I promise that from now on I will always keep a healthy supply so that I never ever use peel-ply from an unknown source. I appreciate the information about the silicone treatment problem, I am aware of what silicone does to the bonding ability of epoxy (won't even allow the stuff in my workshop). On the other hand, for those of us that are vac. bagging, the source of BLEEDER PLY can't possibly make a difference. (Or am I about to get shot down on this also?). I've seen material in the fabric stores that is identical to the bleeder ply Alexander sells, only thicker (which is great, cause I usually have to use multiple layers anyway), for dirt cheap. Jim Hocut jhocut@aol.com