Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 21:10:04 -0400 From: "Marc J. Zeitlin" Subject: COZY: AVEMCO Insurance I know that we've had insurance discussions before, but I thought I'd mention my quote from AVEMCO. I've got about 200 hours total (glider and power) and I requested a quote for 100K/person, 100K/property, and 1M total liability, as well as 65K hull coverage. The quote was: $555 liability $2329 hull Assuming this is representative, I'll be self insuring the hull, and getting liability only. They also want 10 hrs. instruction in type from a CFI who's current in make and model. What's the deal here - I fly off the 40 hours, teach a CFI to fly my plane, and then take 10 hours of lessons from them? How did the rest of you deal with this? Do other insurers request the same? Thanks. -- Marc J. Zeitlin mailto:marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu http://www.ultranet.com/~marcz/ From: "Eric Westland" Subject: Re: COZY: AVEMCO Insurance Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 20:31:55 -0700 I went the rounds with them on the 10 hour rule (which applied to liability as well). A local agent that used to work for Avemco had me call Jim Nelson 1-800-276-5207 ext. 4313. He was willing to work with me somewhat on the rule (10 hours logged as PIC in any canard, did not need to be with a CFI) and they would cover me. However, each time I called Avemco, I got different amounts. In the end, I just flew uninsured the first 10 hours. I stayed near the airport, flew when it was quiet and kept my fingers crossed. I then went with one of the independents (Falcon) who signed me up with Houston Casualty - the only other company that will insure us. They were about $100 a year less than Avemco for what I am pretty sure is the same coverage. $450/year for what you were quoted, liability only. _________________________________________________________ Eric Westland Cozy Mark IV N325PD http://public.surfree.com/ericw/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Domeier" To: "Marc J. Zeitlin" Cc: "Cozy Builders Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 7:22 PM Subject: Re: COZY: AVEMCO Insurance > Marc, > > RE "They also want 10 hrs. instruction in type from a CFI who's current > in make > and model. What's the deal here - I fly off the 40 hours, teach a CFI > to > fly my plane, and then take 10 hours of lessons from them? How did the > rest of you deal with this? Do other insurers request the same?" > > I think that applies to the hull insurance. It is my understanding > liability insurance is on all the time. > > When I bounced back to "test phase" to fly the new Felix prop, the > feds required 5 hours and I'm back to unrestricted flight. Avemco > requires 10 hours before the hull is insured again. Dumb insurance > rule, but that's the way it is. I don't know about other insurance > companies but I think they all dance to the same band these days. > > I self insured the hull for about 18 months. The rates go down > after you've got some time on the machine. Also, I don't insure for > full value (partial self insure). I've got $35,000 of hull insurance > and about the same liability - $1477. > > dd > > Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 09:55:41 -0400 From: Nick Ugolini Subject: Re: COZY: AVEMCO Insurance Marc, Your insurance is about the same cost as mine on the LongEZ. I also purchased X-flight hull insurance anytime the wheels are on the ground for $35k. It covers damage on the ground or theft of radios, hitting taxi lights etc. It cost an additional $400. Well worth it to me as radios are EZ to steal and cost so much. I just flew the plane for the first 10 hrs with no insurance, then after that called them up for a quote. Since I was all ready flying the plane, instructor training wasn't a question. I hope this helps. I will be in Amherst MA in Oct to give a presentation at the college. What do you think about getting together for dinner. I dont think Boston is too far away from there... Take care Sounds like you are at the end of the building process. Congratulations!! Nick ----- Original Message ----- From: Marc J Zeitlin To: Cozy Builders Mailing List Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 9:10 PM Subject: COZY: AVEMCO Insurance > I know that we've had insurance discussions before, but I thought I'd > mention my quote from AVEMCO. I've got about 200 hours total (glider and > power) and I requested a quote for 100K/person, 100K/property, and 1M total > liability, as well as 65K hull coverage. The quote was: > > $555 liability > $2329 hull > > Assuming this is representative, I'll be self insuring the hull, and > getting liability only. > > They also want 10 hrs. instruction in type from a CFI who's current in make > and model. What's the deal here - I fly off the 40 hours, teach a CFI to > fly my plane, and then take 10 hours of lessons from them? How did the > rest of you deal with this? Do other insurers request the same? > > Thanks. > > -- > Marc J. Zeitlin mailto:marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu > http://www.ultranet.com/~marcz/ From: "Eric Westland" Subject: Fw: [c-a] Insurance Question Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 09:54:45 -0700 Hi Marc, While I can't remember what I had for lunch 2 days ago, I somehow remembered this post from last year that taught me a few things, so I thought I would send it along to you. -eric ____________________________________________ Eric Westland Cozy Mark IV N325PD http://public.surfree.com/ericw/ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [c-a] Insurance Question > [The Canard Aviators's Mailing list] > > > You Wrote: > My insurance company, Falcon Insurance in Dallas, has just told me: > > "this aircraft is getting increasingly difficult to write. I believe > HCC is now the only company writing them.... Phoenix Aviation and AIG > have ceased, and anytime that happens, the lack of competition does tend > to drive the premium up." > > Have others been told that the Long Ez is getting difficult to insure > and have any of you been dropped at renewal time? > > Steven Willhoite > Long Ez N553S > > Steve and all: > > At the risk of information overload, let me try this. > > It is important to remember that Falcon is not an insurance company, > they are just insurance brokers (salesmen). Most Agents want you to > think that they are an insurance corporation, but they are not. There > are 9 major aviation insurers doing business today. There are only about > 150,000 registered single and twin piston aircraft in the US, which > makes for a lot of competition. > > The insurers are United States Aircraft Insurance Group (USAIG), > Associated Aviation Underwriters (AAU), Cigna, Great American, Houston > Casualty (HCC), American International Group (AIG), Phoenix, Lloyds of > London and U.S. Specialty (USSIC) which is a division of Avemco - same > pricing and underwriting guidelines. These companies will only do > business through an independent insurance agent. you can not contact > them directly. Avemco is still available, and they are what is referred > to as a "Direct Writer" being that you can call them directly and cut > out the middleman - -or so they want you to think. This is somewhat > misleading, because even at Avemco, they technically have their own > internal "agency" which is who takes your calls. It is illegal > (statutory) to sell or service insurance policies in the US without > being a licensed insurance agent working for an appointed agency. > > All agents, being businessmen too, are trying to make a buck. They must > decide what class of business they can service which will produce the > greatest amount of commission. (normally 15% of your total premium is > the agent's commission, even at avemco). Therefore, you might understand > that an agent could place 3 C-172's @ $800 each in the time it takes > them to place one EZ. > > My best advice would be to find an agency that is highly automated and > has a large book of business, this gives them a big hammer they use to > get better pricing than the other brokers. Remember, Aviation and > Aerospace insurance is Unregulated, and it is truly a commodity item. > Pricing fluctuates on a daily basis. If an underwriter is in a bad mood, > he might just decline you, for no other reason than he doesn't want to > deal with your risk that day. Or if he has an agent that he/she) is real > good friends with, that agent might get pricing on the same risk that is > 10% lower than any other agent can get. I have seen three underwriters > in the same office look at a $124,000 Bonanza risk and the result was > one decline due to pilot age, one quote at $2,800 and the other was > $1,442. Remember all were in the same office (one of them was me). This > does not seem fair, but it is the way things are done. In the pleasure > and business world, writing a new $1,000 policy won't get an underwriter > noticed, but writing a policy that has a $1,000,000 loss might get one > fired. Consequently, underwriters tend to decline rather than take a > chance some times. Additionally, most all underwriters and insurers > suffer from unjustified knee jerk reactions to various aviation losses. > > I think you will also find it is a bit more difficult, and expensive, to > insure a plans built aircraft over an equally valued kit aircraft such > as a lancair or RV. Why? Cause that is what the home office says. > > If I were to insure my aircraft, I would call two people. First I would > call the AOPA insurance agency (800-622-AOPA). They have over 18,000 > customers and can receive a quote from every aviation insurer. Although > they have an affiliation with AOPA, they are really employed by the Aon > Corp. Then I would call Avemco to get a EAA program quote. > > If you have access to them USAA has the USAA General Agency which is > good to. The catch is to be a member of USAA you have to be a current or > former military officer, or the son/daughter of one. > > If it sounds like I am in the Insurance Industry, I am. After a stint > driving a Beech E-90, I was an insurance underwriter for just over 10 > years, and am now currently employed by the largest aviation brokerage > in the US. I can not really help you by handling your insurance, as my > life is committed to serving our airline, products and manufacturer > clients, which results in a 24 hour a day job. Being that I am somewhat > put off by some of the insurance articles I see in the various > magazines, which in my opinion are more like advertisements for the > author's agency than really useful info, I would love to be able to > offer whatever advice or explanations that I can for the benefit of the > group. Insurance is a much overlooked subject which incurs a substantial > cost in one's annual operating budget. > > With a good broker, there is no such thing as an uninsurable risk. > Really. > > One final thought: > > A very successful way to keep insurance costs down, is to form a group, > and then negotiate a "program" with a selected insurance company or two. > The "program" would offer extended policy provisions such as extended > policy territory, credits for aircraft down time, recurrent training > credits, and more importantly, preferred pricing structure. This is done > quite often with groups such as the American Bonanza Society, Mooney > Pilots Association, Twin Cessna Pilots Assn, and the like. This would > take some work to put together, but by leveraging our strengths in > numbers, the result would be beneficial to all. > > Patrick > > \ > ->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-|- > / > -For details on sponsors of this list, copyrights, and how to remove > -yourself from this list, please visit: > > http://www.canard.com/ca-ending.html > > (c) 1997,1998, 1999 Canard Aviators. support@canard.com > / > -|-<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > \ > > > From: "Eric Westland" Subject: COZY: Re: Aircraft insurance costs? Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:58:37 -0700 AOPA would not insure a Cozy when I spoke with them a year ago, even if you were a member. Your choices are basically Avemco or Houston Causality which is sold through brokers like Falcon. I pay $450/yr for a $100,000/per person - $1,000,000 total liability policy, the highest limits they will sell. Pilot time had little to do with the rate (I was at 120 hours), all require 10 hours of PIC time or instruction before they will insure you unless you can do some fast talking. Hull insurance as I remember was very high. ________________________________ Eric Westland Cozy Mark IV N325PD http://public.surfree.com/ericw/ > Have never seen anything on the annual cost to buy Hull and Liability > coverage for > a completed flying craft. Are the best prices from association groups > like AOPA > and how hard is placement for low time pilots? > > Thanks, > > Bill Davison > Harrisburg, PA >